Turbo Indian
worlds quickest 6cyl bird
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2003
it's not cheating if you don't get caught!NCTURBOS said:
who's going to check? heck, they don't check TSM 
Weber Stroker Kits
- Thread starter Bryan Weber
- Start date
who's going to check? heck, they don't check TSM TurboIndian said:it's not cheating if you don't get caught!
Luckily I don't have to worry about you running. Then I would for sure have to check your motor.
BTW, this is TSS not TSM. I'll be (not "they") checking!!
K.
Turbo Indian
worlds quickest 6cyl bird
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2003
you going to check all 3 cars that are going to enter that class. :biggrin: sorry K. I couldn't resist.
TurboIndian said:
I know this isn't a TSS discussion--so i will be brief.
Unfortunately the above statement is sad but true
This COULD and should be the biggest class at any event.Absolutely more cars on this website could fit into this class than any other.
The problem is(and been well discussed)----the level this class has been put at in recent years is unattainable by the average participant in this class.
My car has only two things to change to be legal for this class--and i would gladly swap them out--and i would LOVE to run this class--problem is---read the above problem.
Sorry to be off topic
Geoff
Turbo Indian
worlds quickest 6cyl bird
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2003
geoff you are correct about the amount of cars that fall in the TSS category. but your biggest problem is letting NCTURBLOWS work on your car! :biggrin:
Louis L what are you laughing for, heck you couldn't even read the black & white tire rule for TSE.
Louis L what are you laughing for, heck you couldn't even read the black & white tire rule for TSE.
Turboinjun'
Dont even start with me and the tire rule.. it didnt have anything to do with the tire.Rule or not.. Here these guys were complaining about a fraction of an inch and they were making low10 -high 9 sec passes wearing t shirts and Sansabelts !
Keith,
I wish the class the best of luck. I just found his comment funny.Nothing personal :smile:
Dont even start with me and the tire rule.. it didnt have anything to do with the tire.Rule or not.. Here these guys were complaining about a fraction of an inch and they were making low10 -high 9 sec passes wearing t shirts and Sansabelts !
Keith,
I wish the class the best of luck. I just found his comment funny.Nothing personal :smile:
TurboIndian said:
Although i have the time and facilities to do my own now---i owe NCTURBLOWS a million thanks!!!!!!
You're kidding me!!! And I thought I was going to run away with this class this year!!
NO--no not kidding--you prolly will as long as......nevermind
--i will just leave my high 10 second slug at the house----that ain't gonna cut it.We can talk a bit more about it at m'ville---i hate to keep highjacking this thread.I would like to give a big thumbs up for Weber racing products as i have his roller cam set-up in my car.I called and spoke to him before purchasing his product and found him very willing to help and give advice
Geoff
Lee Thompson
New Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
Tech ? for Bryan
With the Wiseco piston,what piston to wall clearance do you recomend? Also what is your feeling about coating the piston skirts, and if coated, can I tighten up the clearance, say .0005. Thanks
With the Wiseco piston,what piston to wall clearance do you recomend? Also what is your feeling about coating the piston skirts, and if coated, can I tighten up the clearance, say .0005. Thanks
Bryan Weber
Member
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2005
My feeling on piston to wall clearance is letting the engineer that designed the piston tell us what clearance they designed it for. The design of the piston is what dictates what the clearance should be. In this case Wiseco has designed the skirt clearance to be .004" from the the bottom of the oil ring groove. This is different than some pistons that are measured perpendicular to the center of pin bore. One area I look at closely on pistons for high output engines is the skirt design. My opinion is you do not want a rigid skirt (careful because some are designed this way). In many cases where there was a cylinder wall failure that was not caused by a mechanical problem, it had a piston in it with a rigid skirt. The skirt needs to apply the side load as evenly as possible across the entire radius of the cylinder wall. Wiseco has the best skirt design in the business and does this well.
Skirt coating is beneficial but I don't know if it's worth the cost on these engines. The money may prove to better spent in another area. It will however allow you to reduce the piston to wall clearance by the thickness of the coating which is typically .0003-.0008" (this is the usual thickness of PolyDyn's coating). If you do not wish to leave any stone unturned and the cost is not an issue, than the top and side coatings would be right for you.
That's my $.02 worth.
Skirt coating is beneficial but I don't know if it's worth the cost on these engines. The money may prove to better spent in another area. It will however allow you to reduce the piston to wall clearance by the thickness of the coating which is typically .0003-.0008" (this is the usual thickness of PolyDyn's coating). If you do not wish to leave any stone unturned and the cost is not an issue, than the top and side coatings would be right for you.
That's my $.02 worth.
Lee Thompson
New Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
One more ? for Bryan
Speed Pro catalog suggest having a tighter top ring end gap than the second ring. As an example (.018 top compression ring--.022 second ring). Do you subscribe to this theory? Is this new? I assume your rings that come in the kit have specs. for ring gap. Thanks
Speed Pro catalog suggest having a tighter top ring end gap than the second ring. As an example (.018 top compression ring--.022 second ring). Do you subscribe to this theory? Is this new? I assume your rings that come in the kit have specs. for ring gap. Thanks
Bryan Weber
Member
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2005
ring gap
We recommend using a larger second ring gap. For the ring to seal properly it requires pressure to be pushing down on the top of the ring and that pressure also leaks through the clearance between the top of the ring and the piston, gets behind the ring and pushes the ring outward in to the cylinder wall. The top ring does the majority of the work and applies much more force against the cylinder wall which is why that is the moly ring.
For some reason many engine builders and ring companies recommended a tighter second gap for many years. This does not work properly because with the second ring gap smaller the pressure between the two rings would equal the pressure above the top ring. This would unload the top ring and in some cases cause it to flutter. Now the second ring would be doing more work which is not how it was designed to work and would cause increased wear in the cylinder and ring. This of coarse would only be the case for the period of time until the accelerated second ring wear inceases the gap to equal that of the top ring. This still would not be correct.
Anyhow in the last several years there has been a revelation in the high performance ring industry that the larger second ring gap is how it should be done. Oddly enough the heavy duty engine industry has been doing this for many years.
The second ring should have approx. .002" more gap than the first. When the engine is running especially at w.o.t. the difference is likely more than this due to the top ring being hotter. As far as ideal ring gap this is where you need to error on the safe side but the rule of thumb is .004" per inch of bore for NA applications all the way up to .007" per inch of bore for ultra high H.P. blown, turbo, or nitrous applications. The more H.P. per cube you make the larger it needs to be. Another factor is piston material and design effecting heat dissipation. The closer to .000" you can make the gap at w.o.t. the more power you will make. But if the ring butts together the engine gets damaged so there is a fine line that we need to stay on the right side of. There will be helpful information provided with the rotating assy.
We recommend using a larger second ring gap. For the ring to seal properly it requires pressure to be pushing down on the top of the ring and that pressure also leaks through the clearance between the top of the ring and the piston, gets behind the ring and pushes the ring outward in to the cylinder wall. The top ring does the majority of the work and applies much more force against the cylinder wall which is why that is the moly ring.
For some reason many engine builders and ring companies recommended a tighter second gap for many years. This does not work properly because with the second ring gap smaller the pressure between the two rings would equal the pressure above the top ring. This would unload the top ring and in some cases cause it to flutter. Now the second ring would be doing more work which is not how it was designed to work and would cause increased wear in the cylinder and ring. This of coarse would only be the case for the period of time until the accelerated second ring wear inceases the gap to equal that of the top ring. This still would not be correct.
Anyhow in the last several years there has been a revelation in the high performance ring industry that the larger second ring gap is how it should be done. Oddly enough the heavy duty engine industry has been doing this for many years.
The second ring should have approx. .002" more gap than the first. When the engine is running especially at w.o.t. the difference is likely more than this due to the top ring being hotter. As far as ideal ring gap this is where you need to error on the safe side but the rule of thumb is .004" per inch of bore for NA applications all the way up to .007" per inch of bore for ultra high H.P. blown, turbo, or nitrous applications. The more H.P. per cube you make the larger it needs to be. Another factor is piston material and design effecting heat dissipation. The closer to .000" you can make the gap at w.o.t. the more power you will make. But if the ring butts together the engine gets damaged so there is a fine line that we need to stay on the right side of. There will be helpful information provided with the rotating assy.
Dave Levey
Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
Bryan,
I was wondering what your policy is if you accidentally supplied .001 under bearings and it caused the motor to get tight enough to stall when warmed up? Do you accept responsibility and make it right or do you offer to clean up the crank and sell me another set of bearings and offer no help with the other materials or labor required to r&r the motor and redo things or is it my responsibility to recheck your work?
I was wondering what your policy is if you accidentally supplied .001 under bearings and it caused the motor to get tight enough to stall when warmed up? Do you accept responsibility and make it right or do you offer to clean up the crank and sell me another set of bearings and offer no help with the other materials or labor required to r&r the motor and redo things or is it my responsibility to recheck your work?
Turbo Indian
worlds quickest 6cyl bird
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2003
there are a few ways to look at that,
1) spend the few extra dollars & let the machine shop put it together. so many
people think hell anyone can slap some pistons & bearing in. but they don't
realise that is what you pay for check, double check & triple check.
2) ALWAYS recheck every ones work, people are human & they make
mistakes.
3) if the bearings were that tight, how did you roll it over by hand when
priming it before starting it? if you did get it to roll over you should have said to yourself this is to damn tight & made a phone call or started checking everything.
1) spend the few extra dollars & let the machine shop put it together. so many
people think hell anyone can slap some pistons & bearing in. but they don't
realise that is what you pay for check, double check & triple check.
2) ALWAYS recheck every ones work, people are human & they make
mistakes.
3) if the bearings were that tight, how did you roll it over by hand when
priming it before starting it? if you did get it to roll over you should have said to yourself this is to damn tight & made a phone call or started checking everything.
Dave Levey
Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
Turbo Indian,
Thank you for the reply, I hope to hear from Webber Racing also as to how they would handle this type of situation ?
Thank you for the reply, I hope to hear from Webber Racing also as to how they would handle this type of situation ?
Bryan Weber
Member
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2005
Dave,
If we sell a part in error we will certainly accept that part back for return if it is in resellable condition. Once the part has been installed or damaged we no longer can accept that part back for credit. If for example a set of bearings were placed in a block and then the clearance checked carefully, it would not damage the bearings so we could accept them for return.
The engine assembler is responsible for measuring all clearances and all components that are going into the engine. As with the manufacturers and retailers of just about anything there is no liablity for consequential expenses.
When we build engines we do not and can not ever assume anything is right and just throw it together. It is necessary to assume the opposite, that everything is wrong until we prove it to be good to consistantly build a quality product.
To sum it all up, if someone assembles an engine and they do not check clearances (especially bearing clearances!) they certainly are taking a big risk for saving a few minutes of time and therefore will certainly be liable for any and all consequences of that decision.
If a shop were to offer any assistance to offset costs incurred it would be a gratuitous offer and should be thankfully accepted.
If we sell a part in error we will certainly accept that part back for return if it is in resellable condition. Once the part has been installed or damaged we no longer can accept that part back for credit. If for example a set of bearings were placed in a block and then the clearance checked carefully, it would not damage the bearings so we could accept them for return.
The engine assembler is responsible for measuring all clearances and all components that are going into the engine. As with the manufacturers and retailers of just about anything there is no liablity for consequential expenses.
When we build engines we do not and can not ever assume anything is right and just throw it together. It is necessary to assume the opposite, that everything is wrong until we prove it to be good to consistantly build a quality product.
To sum it all up, if someone assembles an engine and they do not check clearances (especially bearing clearances!) they certainly are taking a big risk for saving a few minutes of time and therefore will certainly be liable for any and all consequences of that decision.
If a shop were to offer any assistance to offset costs incurred it would be a gratuitous offer and should be thankfully accepted.
Dave Levey
Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
The simple answer of you should have double checked our work when all you had to do was polish a crank and supply bearings to fit is pretty sad to me. I recomended my customer to you because you have done a lot of Buick work and I ASSumed you knew how important bearing clearances were. I had enough confidence in you to believe that you supplied .001 under bearings to maintain those clearances.I provided 100% warrantee to the customer on all parts and labor. The fact that you had the easy part of repolishing the crank and supplying another set of main bearings which you made the customer pay for shows that we are not even close on how we view customer retention.I deal with rebuilt parts all day long and when I have a problem I can file a labor claim with those companies if I choose. No one ever asked you to help with anything, only to cover the bearings and crank polish.
If my expectations are unrealistic and I really do not know what I am talking about then anyone reading this should ignore me. Best of luck to you in the future Bryan and hopefully your principles by which you operate are worth more to you then the 30.00 for the main bearings you did not feel you should replace.
If my expectations are unrealistic and I really do not know what I am talking about then anyone reading this should ignore me. Best of luck to you in the future Bryan and hopefully your principles by which you operate are worth more to you then the 30.00 for the main bearings you did not feel you should replace.
