What am I working with?
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Anthony P
sharing knowledge with those who care to listen
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While I'm waiting for more snow to melt, I'll keep adding stuff....
I'm a firm believer in having the correct diagnostic tools to make the job easier instead of buying a bunch of new parts that may solve the problem only to learn later those new parts did not solve the issue.
Regarding the coilpak and ignition module...
coilpaks will fail - usually the 2/5 middle tower (coil) - weak spark causing engine rich condition. ignition modules don't fail that often. The ohm meter testing of a coilpak is overly simple and does not prove a good part under load. it only give you a starting point. use an ohm meter to confirm the resistance of each tower is 11-13K ohms. then the Casper's C3I Ignition Simulator comes into play. vendors used to carry this all about the $130 mark. below is a link to it on Caspers. I think it is an excellent investment - a lot better than buying an ignition coil when you only need a coilpak and a tool for future preventative maintenance.
http://www.casperselectronics.com/cart/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=14
don't overspend on an ACDelco coilpak or the Accel coilpak with the brass terminals on Jegs for $140. If needed, the Standard Motor Products DR36 is a great choice, looks exactly like OE and is only $54 at RockAuto.
Spark plug wires...if you want grey colored ones like OE, Highway stars reproduced the factory numbered plug wires while Kirbans has clean grey plug wire set without the numbers for half the cost. ACDelco plug wire sets will not be the correct length. Members on this forum make sets using larger size wire like the blue set you have. Russ Merritt, if he's still around, made custom wire sets for the turbo buicks. Or maybe you have connectors and the tool to crimp them to make those blue wires fit better.
I'm a firm believer in having the correct diagnostic tools to make the job easier instead of buying a bunch of new parts that may solve the problem only to learn later those new parts did not solve the issue.
Regarding the coilpak and ignition module...
coilpaks will fail - usually the 2/5 middle tower (coil) - weak spark causing engine rich condition. ignition modules don't fail that often. The ohm meter testing of a coilpak is overly simple and does not prove a good part under load. it only give you a starting point. use an ohm meter to confirm the resistance of each tower is 11-13K ohms. then the Casper's C3I Ignition Simulator comes into play. vendors used to carry this all about the $130 mark. below is a link to it on Caspers. I think it is an excellent investment - a lot better than buying an ignition coil when you only need a coilpak and a tool for future preventative maintenance.
http://www.casperselectronics.com/cart/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=14
don't overspend on an ACDelco coilpak or the Accel coilpak with the brass terminals on Jegs for $140. If needed, the Standard Motor Products DR36 is a great choice, looks exactly like OE and is only $54 at RockAuto.
Spark plug wires...if you want grey colored ones like OE, Highway stars reproduced the factory numbered plug wires while Kirbans has clean grey plug wire set without the numbers for half the cost. ACDelco plug wire sets will not be the correct length. Members on this forum make sets using larger size wire like the blue set you have. Russ Merritt, if he's still around, made custom wire sets for the turbo buicks. Or maybe you have connectors and the tool to crimp them to make those blue wires fit better.
Anthony P
sharing knowledge with those who care to listen
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some engine inspection areas to check...
you'll want to pull the engine's front cover to replace the factory timing chain and the nylon tooth cam sprocket. suggest a Cloyes set available from the vendors. After 30 years, there may be some nylon teeth chiclets at the bottom of the oil pan. while the cover is off, replace front seal to a neoprene one. hopefully the cam button did not grind into the cover much. you can do a search for the oil passage mods to the front cover (Earl did this write up) and check out the surface for the oil pump gears.
bearing wear on a turbo buick engine will show up first at the #2 and #3 mains and #5 and #6 rods from the path of the oil. drop the oil pan to learn what potential material is in there. the ridge at the oil drain hole prevents the pan from draining clean. initial inspection of bearings can yield the crank may only need a polish. rear main seal was a 2-piece rope seal. good time to replace that with a neoprene one to help eliminate the real main oil drips.
stock valve springs were weak to begin with. now 30 years later and wear, most replace with Comp Cams #980 for stock/modified stock.
Camshaft: Richard clark's garage RCG likes an Erson 194/197 for stock like builds. Some folks like a Comp Cams 206/206 profile. you have to review and figure out what you want to do there.
turbo: not much benefit of a TA-49 over a stock unit if you boost levels will be less than 20 psig. TA49 only gives improvement over stocker once boost levels exceed 20-22 psig where the stocker's charge temp is high. get about 20 HP more with a TA49 at street 16-18 psig boost levels as TA49 does not work as hard as stocker (lower charge temp). if your stock turbo has compressor wheel damage, cost wise is just to trade it to Kirban's for a stock replacement. If you want a TA49, contact @bison as he usually has enough components new and good used to put something together. If the stocker is OK and you get another cast elbow for it but want to go through it anyway with a rebuild, Gpopshop is a good place for Garrett rebuild kits. can also contact Chopper at Limit Engineering as well.
ECM chip: even if you can id the old PROM chip, I'd suggest getting a Turbo Tweak street chip from Eric. the old chips have way too much timing at WOT (24 - 26* for the stock ACXA chip) for today's ethanol blended pump gas. today's chips have better fuel mapping and radiator fan control. TT street chip permits 16-18 psi boost at about 18* adv timing at WOT.
thermostat: need a 160F t-stat with the TT chip as fan on @166F. since the t-stat is a horizontal outlet, drill a 1/8" hole and install with the hole at 12 o'clock. hole allows any trapped air to pass as well as allowing some coolant to pass should the t-stat ever get stuck closed.
reviewing this stuff should keep you busy for a while...
you'll want to pull the engine's front cover to replace the factory timing chain and the nylon tooth cam sprocket. suggest a Cloyes set available from the vendors. After 30 years, there may be some nylon teeth chiclets at the bottom of the oil pan. while the cover is off, replace front seal to a neoprene one. hopefully the cam button did not grind into the cover much. you can do a search for the oil passage mods to the front cover (Earl did this write up) and check out the surface for the oil pump gears.
bearing wear on a turbo buick engine will show up first at the #2 and #3 mains and #5 and #6 rods from the path of the oil. drop the oil pan to learn what potential material is in there. the ridge at the oil drain hole prevents the pan from draining clean. initial inspection of bearings can yield the crank may only need a polish. rear main seal was a 2-piece rope seal. good time to replace that with a neoprene one to help eliminate the real main oil drips.
stock valve springs were weak to begin with. now 30 years later and wear, most replace with Comp Cams #980 for stock/modified stock.
Camshaft: Richard clark's garage RCG likes an Erson 194/197 for stock like builds. Some folks like a Comp Cams 206/206 profile. you have to review and figure out what you want to do there.
turbo: not much benefit of a TA-49 over a stock unit if you boost levels will be less than 20 psig. TA49 only gives improvement over stocker once boost levels exceed 20-22 psig where the stocker's charge temp is high. get about 20 HP more with a TA49 at street 16-18 psig boost levels as TA49 does not work as hard as stocker (lower charge temp). if your stock turbo has compressor wheel damage, cost wise is just to trade it to Kirban's for a stock replacement. If you want a TA49, contact @bison as he usually has enough components new and good used to put something together. If the stocker is OK and you get another cast elbow for it but want to go through it anyway with a rebuild, Gpopshop is a good place for Garrett rebuild kits. can also contact Chopper at Limit Engineering as well.
ECM chip: even if you can id the old PROM chip, I'd suggest getting a Turbo Tweak street chip from Eric. the old chips have way too much timing at WOT (24 - 26* for the stock ACXA chip) for today's ethanol blended pump gas. today's chips have better fuel mapping and radiator fan control. TT street chip permits 16-18 psi boost at about 18* adv timing at WOT.
thermostat: need a 160F t-stat with the TT chip as fan on @166F. since the t-stat is a horizontal outlet, drill a 1/8" hole and install with the hole at 12 o'clock. hole allows any trapped air to pass as well as allowing some coolant to pass should the t-stat ever get stuck closed.
reviewing this stuff should keep you busy for a while...
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Pronto
No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot.
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That's a boatload of work. Hope the brakes, suspension, rearend, and body are in good shape.
Tizzledizzle
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@Anthony P You are the man! Talked to the pops today, plan is to pull the engine and put it on a stand over Christmas break. I'm making a punch list of things I need to buy, and research in the meantime (things like the above are hugely helpful).
We'll get the engine freshened up on the stand, while also starting to tackle all the other boogers under the hood.
Looks like the chips in there are stock, and I'll pick the ones referenced above up. Mine just have sharpie on the underside saying "turbo T"
We'll get the engine freshened up on the stand, while also starting to tackle all the other boogers under the hood.
Looks like the chips in there are stock, and I'll pick the ones referenced above up. Mine just have sharpie on the underside saying "turbo T"
Tizzledizzle
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Principle. It will be easier to clean up the engine bay and figure out what kind of shape everything is in. I also want to check the cam, replace the top end gaskets, etc. history has shown me that pulling it and putting it on a stand is way easier than trying to do all that in place. Plus then I can flip it and pull the oil pan and check for wear on the bottom end.
Anthony P
sharing knowledge with those who care to listen
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firm believer of verifying what you have, just like you're doing....this project is an investment of time and dollars...if this forum can share tips so that you can do something once and move on without wasting $$$ on parts that don't work well together since this is your FIRST turbo buick, that is a winner. can't build a turbo buick motor like a small block chevy - the specs and tolerances are vastly different.
on the cam, while any lobe can abnormally wear, it is usually the #3 exhaust lobe that becomes problematic first. It's inherent in all the TB production blocks - the geometry of the casting for that lifter bore. On the Stage I and II blocks we would bore the lifter holes and use bronze inserts for all. but no one would do that work on the 109 blocks. just something to be aware of as you inspect and verify.
since it is the holiday season and jegs and summit are plastering my inbox with discount codes (why the suggestion to create accounts there) and Kirban's has published his Christmas specials - just things to know...
when you get to the radiator...
if it is the original stock radiator, it can be re-cored. any competent local rad shop will do. 2 choices for replacement core:
1. a 3-row core, 2" thick, using 1/2" tubes is about $540 reusing your original end tanks. like OEM, will fit fine OR
2. a 3-row core, 2-1/4" thick, using 5/8" tubes is about $600 reusing the original end tanks.
the problem with the 2-1/4" thick radiator is fitment under the stock rad top plate and stock rubber cushions. probably need the larger cushions and may have to trim the radiator core support tab like what needs to be done when using the aftermarket aluminum radiators. See coldcase on jegs for pic of trimming rad support.
https://www.jegs.com/i/Cold-Case-Radiators/359/GMB57A/10002/-1
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rad-gmb57a
The coldcase radiator is a really nice unit. it's more cooling capacity than what a stocker needs but is cheaper than re-coring an original. Depends what you want for the car. Some are flat out against modifying the tab on the rad support to make the coldcase fit. Jegs and summit holiday codes have already been for another $25 off a $250 purchase and free shipping. If you can wait til Spring, Kirban's does a nice discount on the ColdCase radiators in April. hopefully he will offer it again in 2019.
some have used the Alradco aluminum replacement radiator and have high praise for it. lots of threads discussing replacement rads.
here is one when Kirban's introduced the ColdCase last year. I posted close up pics of the coldcase.
https://turbobuick.com/threads/replacement-radiator-suggestions.450029/
here is the thread introducing the alradco.
https://turbobuick.com/threads/aluminum-radiator-american-made-by-alradco.341844/
on the cam, while any lobe can abnormally wear, it is usually the #3 exhaust lobe that becomes problematic first. It's inherent in all the TB production blocks - the geometry of the casting for that lifter bore. On the Stage I and II blocks we would bore the lifter holes and use bronze inserts for all. but no one would do that work on the 109 blocks. just something to be aware of as you inspect and verify.
since it is the holiday season and jegs and summit are plastering my inbox with discount codes (why the suggestion to create accounts there) and Kirban's has published his Christmas specials - just things to know...
when you get to the radiator...
if it is the original stock radiator, it can be re-cored. any competent local rad shop will do. 2 choices for replacement core:
1. a 3-row core, 2" thick, using 1/2" tubes is about $540 reusing your original end tanks. like OEM, will fit fine OR
2. a 3-row core, 2-1/4" thick, using 5/8" tubes is about $600 reusing the original end tanks.
the problem with the 2-1/4" thick radiator is fitment under the stock rad top plate and stock rubber cushions. probably need the larger cushions and may have to trim the radiator core support tab like what needs to be done when using the aftermarket aluminum radiators. See coldcase on jegs for pic of trimming rad support.
https://www.jegs.com/i/Cold-Case-Radiators/359/GMB57A/10002/-1
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rad-gmb57a
The coldcase radiator is a really nice unit. it's more cooling capacity than what a stocker needs but is cheaper than re-coring an original. Depends what you want for the car. Some are flat out against modifying the tab on the rad support to make the coldcase fit. Jegs and summit holiday codes have already been for another $25 off a $250 purchase and free shipping. If you can wait til Spring, Kirban's does a nice discount on the ColdCase radiators in April. hopefully he will offer it again in 2019.
some have used the Alradco aluminum replacement radiator and have high praise for it. lots of threads discussing replacement rads.
here is one when Kirban's introduced the ColdCase last year. I posted close up pics of the coldcase.
https://turbobuick.com/threads/replacement-radiator-suggestions.450029/
here is the thread introducing the alradco.
https://turbobuick.com/threads/aluminum-radiator-american-made-by-alradco.341844/
Anthony P
sharing knowledge with those who care to listen
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rain yet to wash away the snow...still have outdoor work to do and not ready to begin the winter indoor woodworking projects so I'll keep going with these informational overviews to complement your research on doing things right the first time. then you can share what you've learned with others when the time comes or at least carry an intelligent conversation when you meet up with anyone at TB gatherings...
Radiator fan:
the stock electric fan works fine. that big ceramic resistor is no longer available new. A forum member in Poland documented his restoration of the stock fan here. If the fan or housing is damaged and you definitely want a stock fan, someone here probably has one. In addition, the same fan was used on the V6 Pontiac Fieros.
valuing time and cost, many just replace a damaged stock fan with the dual fan setup from the 1999 -2004 Dodge Intrepid. look up the choices on RockAuto as baseline comparisons. TYC and Spectra have lifetime warranty, others are 12 months. also find fans on ebay. don't know what brand or warranty on what vendors sell. remove the plastic ear mounting tabs on each side and the fan shroud covers the rad core perfectly. test your sheet metal skills to fab some stainless mounting tabs/bracket top and bottom. Casper's makes the plug-and-play wiring harness adapter.
fuel pressure regulator:
with the TT chip, baseline static fuel pressure, vacuum line off, is to be set at 43 psig. you have a 1990's stock Bosch "233" fpr with the chopped top to make it adjustable. it may function fine, but that was the hack in the '90's as well as crushing the tops to increase fuel pressure. As matter of principle, there are better alternatives today.
Accufab and Kirban's make adj. fpr's. The Accufab's today are not what they used to be. do a search for current discussions. that leaves Kirban's as the best choice for an adj. fpr. BUT, for stock or nearly stock, do you need the infinite adjustability that unit provides? For stock or mod-stock, most are just setting the fuel pressure once and that is it. they are not viewing top end data from a data logger recording track runs and making minute tweaks to fuel pressure. And there is the possibility the nut on top can loosen and change you fuel pressure setting.
For simplicity, the Bosch "237" fpr is a stock appearing fpr that operates at the desired fuel pressure for the TT chip. not turbo buick specific. something to consider. do an internet search using the part #'s below. the black bosch 237 is discontinued but there are still NOS ones on part shelves. Used 237's on here go for about $50 as well as what comes up on ebay. Bosch discontinued the 237 fpr in Feb 2015.
Bosch 237 fpr part # 0280160237. GM part # 25523720. ACDelco 217-404. Standard Motor Products PR4.
the SMP PR4 is cad yellow. paint it black. they're on ebay for less than $30. I have found NOS Bosch237's in the $50 - $100 range. there is one on ebay now for $96
fuel pump hot wire kit:
pick up one from the vendors as you are buying stuff. fuel pump needs stable voltage not affected by electrical load of fan, headlights, etc. read up on that topic.
fuel pump:
too, too many folks buying or being sold way too large fuel pump for a stock or near stock street car. learn from this thread.
https://turbobuick.com/threads/fp-regulator-bad.459565/
I'm waiting for the original poster, Dennis to update the thread with his successful actions and result so others can learn from his efforts as well.
fuel pressure gauge:
this one in black from full throttle speed blends in best
http://www.fullthrottlespeed.com/rail-mount-fuel-pressure-gauge-for-gm.html
may have to call full throttle as the website is acting funny adding black gauge to cart, but it's available separately...
http://www.fullthrottlespeed.com/fuel-injection-systems/gauges-efi.html
for doing fuel pressure confirmations at WOT, pick up any 2 or 3 inch gauge on a hose to be tucked under the wiper arm and can be seen thru the windshield from the driver's seat.
a lot to digest, but you are making lists and priortizing stuff.
Radiator fan:
the stock electric fan works fine. that big ceramic resistor is no longer available new. A forum member in Poland documented his restoration of the stock fan here. If the fan or housing is damaged and you definitely want a stock fan, someone here probably has one. In addition, the same fan was used on the V6 Pontiac Fieros.
valuing time and cost, many just replace a damaged stock fan with the dual fan setup from the 1999 -2004 Dodge Intrepid. look up the choices on RockAuto as baseline comparisons. TYC and Spectra have lifetime warranty, others are 12 months. also find fans on ebay. don't know what brand or warranty on what vendors sell. remove the plastic ear mounting tabs on each side and the fan shroud covers the rad core perfectly. test your sheet metal skills to fab some stainless mounting tabs/bracket top and bottom. Casper's makes the plug-and-play wiring harness adapter.
fuel pressure regulator:
with the TT chip, baseline static fuel pressure, vacuum line off, is to be set at 43 psig. you have a 1990's stock Bosch "233" fpr with the chopped top to make it adjustable. it may function fine, but that was the hack in the '90's as well as crushing the tops to increase fuel pressure. As matter of principle, there are better alternatives today.
Accufab and Kirban's make adj. fpr's. The Accufab's today are not what they used to be. do a search for current discussions. that leaves Kirban's as the best choice for an adj. fpr. BUT, for stock or nearly stock, do you need the infinite adjustability that unit provides? For stock or mod-stock, most are just setting the fuel pressure once and that is it. they are not viewing top end data from a data logger recording track runs and making minute tweaks to fuel pressure. And there is the possibility the nut on top can loosen and change you fuel pressure setting.
For simplicity, the Bosch "237" fpr is a stock appearing fpr that operates at the desired fuel pressure for the TT chip. not turbo buick specific. something to consider. do an internet search using the part #'s below. the black bosch 237 is discontinued but there are still NOS ones on part shelves. Used 237's on here go for about $50 as well as what comes up on ebay. Bosch discontinued the 237 fpr in Feb 2015.
Bosch 237 fpr part # 0280160237. GM part # 25523720. ACDelco 217-404. Standard Motor Products PR4.
the SMP PR4 is cad yellow. paint it black. they're on ebay for less than $30. I have found NOS Bosch237's in the $50 - $100 range. there is one on ebay now for $96
fuel pump hot wire kit:
pick up one from the vendors as you are buying stuff. fuel pump needs stable voltage not affected by electrical load of fan, headlights, etc. read up on that topic.
fuel pump:
too, too many folks buying or being sold way too large fuel pump for a stock or near stock street car. learn from this thread.
https://turbobuick.com/threads/fp-regulator-bad.459565/
I'm waiting for the original poster, Dennis to update the thread with his successful actions and result so others can learn from his efforts as well.
fuel pressure gauge:
this one in black from full throttle speed blends in best
http://www.fullthrottlespeed.com/rail-mount-fuel-pressure-gauge-for-gm.html
may have to call full throttle as the website is acting funny adding black gauge to cart, but it's available separately...
http://www.fullthrottlespeed.com/fuel-injection-systems/gauges-efi.html
for doing fuel pressure confirmations at WOT, pick up any 2 or 3 inch gauge on a hose to be tucked under the wiper arm and can be seen thru the windshield from the driver's seat.
a lot to digest, but you are making lists and priortizing stuff.
SpeedRacerX
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This thread should be a sticky. So much info in here especially for a new TB owner.
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Anthony P
sharing knowledge with those who care to listen
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SCANTOOL:
very important to have one. the scanmaster item as already recommended is a wonderful and necessary tool. At $250 though, it is an investment albeit a needed one. Some like me, did not want to mount this thing on the dash or place it in the glove box. need it for diagnostics...on a street car, you are not staring at the scanmaster while you are driving to a show or get together or just out for a cruise.
years ago I was looking at the scanmaster for the Buick, but I also needed a scan tool for the daily driver and what ever else the family had. Instead of investing in a Buick specific scan tool PLUS another scan tool for the daily driver family mobiles, i searched for one scan tool that could do both - ODB-I for the GN and OBD-II and CAN for anything '96 and newer. I purchased an AutoXray EZ Scan 6000 for $535 about 15 or so years ago. besides being able to retrieve/reset trouble codes, you can view all the ODB-I and ODB-II data as live data. the EZ Scan 6000 is also a data logger to an extent. record all the available parameters in a 29-frame capture mode where user set capture frame interval from 0.5 seconds to 5 seconds (0500ms to 5000ms). at 0.5 sec interval, you can record all parameters for 14.5 seconds. the data recording is setup for half the time period before you press record and half after rather than recording for 14.5 seconds straight after you press record. While this unit is now discontinued, they are on ebay. The EZ Scan 5000 is similar to the 6000. Here is the 6000 on Summit when available - info overview. Today, the Bosch-Actron CP9690 is a similar substitution for the EZ Scan 6000. the CP9690 is on Jegs for $243 here.
I found a mint condition EZ Scan 6000 on ebay auction now for $100 starting bid + $13.87 shipping. see it here. while this is a public forum, please give the OP a chance to read this post and decide what he'd like to do. listing is auction format ending Friday @ 4:48pm. there are others available.
options are something to really consider - scanmaster or a Scantool.
attached below are all the ODB-1 parameters available on the stock ACXA chip. I formatted this worksheet to aid tabulating the data when tuning - setting TPS and IAC...posted many times over the years...
very important to have one. the scanmaster item as already recommended is a wonderful and necessary tool. At $250 though, it is an investment albeit a needed one. Some like me, did not want to mount this thing on the dash or place it in the glove box. need it for diagnostics...on a street car, you are not staring at the scanmaster while you are driving to a show or get together or just out for a cruise.
years ago I was looking at the scanmaster for the Buick, but I also needed a scan tool for the daily driver and what ever else the family had. Instead of investing in a Buick specific scan tool PLUS another scan tool for the daily driver family mobiles, i searched for one scan tool that could do both - ODB-I for the GN and OBD-II and CAN for anything '96 and newer. I purchased an AutoXray EZ Scan 6000 for $535 about 15 or so years ago. besides being able to retrieve/reset trouble codes, you can view all the ODB-I and ODB-II data as live data. the EZ Scan 6000 is also a data logger to an extent. record all the available parameters in a 29-frame capture mode where user set capture frame interval from 0.5 seconds to 5 seconds (0500ms to 5000ms). at 0.5 sec interval, you can record all parameters for 14.5 seconds. the data recording is setup for half the time period before you press record and half after rather than recording for 14.5 seconds straight after you press record. While this unit is now discontinued, they are on ebay. The EZ Scan 5000 is similar to the 6000. Here is the 6000 on Summit when available - info overview. Today, the Bosch-Actron CP9690 is a similar substitution for the EZ Scan 6000. the CP9690 is on Jegs for $243 here.
I found a mint condition EZ Scan 6000 on ebay auction now for $100 starting bid + $13.87 shipping. see it here. while this is a public forum, please give the OP a chance to read this post and decide what he'd like to do. listing is auction format ending Friday @ 4:48pm. there are others available.
options are something to really consider - scanmaster or a Scantool.
attached below are all the ODB-1 parameters available on the stock ACXA chip. I formatted this worksheet to aid tabulating the data when tuning - setting TPS and IAC...posted many times over the years...
Anthony P
sharing knowledge with those who care to listen
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sent PM regarding internet find of Limited Interior items...found while helping someone else....maybe needed here?
Anthony P
sharing knowledge with those who care to listen
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Aftermarket parts:
It is only in recent years that good aftermarket parts have been available. up until about 2012 we were all relying on junkyard parts or hugely expensive NOS parts that someone bought up and squirrelled away in the early to mid-2000's.
PartsPlace Inc. was the first company to really get into the turbo buick stuff. I think it was 2012 at Richard Clark's open house in Burlington, NC where the new repops of black grilles and black headlight bezels were introduced and well received. PartsPlace stuff can be purchased thru their website, on ebay, and some stuff is carried via the vendors as well.
In 2014 at the SEMA show, Goodmark had a GN in their booth showing off all the new G-body parts they were introducing now that the value of the cars was steadily increasing. attached is the Goodmark catalog so you can review what parts are available in the aftermarket. just have to find a vendor carrying them.
As noted most by Kirban's InnerCircle email, the availability of used parts has really dried up, unless someone is parting a car.
Aggressive Performance in MI and @Intercooled88s here have many parts cars and are good folks to deal with if the need arises down the road.
It is only in recent years that good aftermarket parts have been available. up until about 2012 we were all relying on junkyard parts or hugely expensive NOS parts that someone bought up and squirrelled away in the early to mid-2000's.
PartsPlace Inc. was the first company to really get into the turbo buick stuff. I think it was 2012 at Richard Clark's open house in Burlington, NC where the new repops of black grilles and black headlight bezels were introduced and well received. PartsPlace stuff can be purchased thru their website, on ebay, and some stuff is carried via the vendors as well.
In 2014 at the SEMA show, Goodmark had a GN in their booth showing off all the new G-body parts they were introducing now that the value of the cars was steadily increasing. attached is the Goodmark catalog so you can review what parts are available in the aftermarket. just have to find a vendor carrying them.
As noted most by Kirban's InnerCircle email, the availability of used parts has really dried up, unless someone is parting a car.
Aggressive Performance in MI and @Intercooled88s here have many parts cars and are good folks to deal with if the need arises down the road.
Anthony P
sharing knowledge with those who care to listen
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- Jan 24, 2007
- Messages
- 1,245
have to circle back to a few things...
Fuel Injectors:
have to know what injectors you have before ordering a TT chip from Eric. maybe id injectors via part # on them and internet search. As baseline, should have injectors ultrasonically cleaned and flowed. Once you know flow #'s review the gnttype.org fuel system page here. And specifically, this chart here to confirm the injectors you have are appropriate for the supposed 480 wheel HP this mill is supposed to make. At 600 bHP, I hope those are at least 50# injectors, preferably 60#. Once you have the flow results from these injectors, install the two that may flow a touch more for cylinders 5 and 6. Inherent design of doghouse yields 5 and 6 run leaner.
Airflow power plate:
something to consider in the effort to equalize airflow to all cylinders. RJC racing developed this product. At first, many were skeptical. Richard Clark completed his independent qualification of this part and confirmed RJC's claims. available thru the vendors, etc.
T-Stat outlet:
the stainless part # 6706 from Kirban's is a nice piece. would not bother with an OE steel replacement or an aluminum aftermarket one for concerns about corrosion - even if using regular antifreeze + distilled H2O.
Coolant hard pipe (heater):
from the pics, it's a little banged up. repops were made in stainless with and without the connections for the throttle body pre-heat lines. don't recall which vendors have them. Good used stock ones are around. just ask in the parts wanted section. Have to sign in to forum in order to read parts for sale and parts wanted sections.
those rubber caps on the throttle body pre-heat taps are an accident waiting to happen. plain edpm rubber vacuum cap is not the solution. if you keep the stock coolant pipe with these taps, suggest connecting them with real heater hose.
Engine block coolant drains:
the 86-87 "109" blocks have a drain plug installed between the two large freeze plugs. the brass plug requires a 9/32 square drive socket to remove. for ease in future coolant changes and effectively draining and flushing the block I replaced those plugs with these brass petcocks by Omix-Ada part # 17470.13. Used to be about $12 each but now on Amazon for less than $4. see them here.
Fuel pressure regulator:
kind of funny I found your current FPR on ebay as New condition for Mercedes here.
Fuel Injectors:
have to know what injectors you have before ordering a TT chip from Eric. maybe id injectors via part # on them and internet search. As baseline, should have injectors ultrasonically cleaned and flowed. Once you know flow #'s review the gnttype.org fuel system page here. And specifically, this chart here to confirm the injectors you have are appropriate for the supposed 480 wheel HP this mill is supposed to make. At 600 bHP, I hope those are at least 50# injectors, preferably 60#. Once you have the flow results from these injectors, install the two that may flow a touch more for cylinders 5 and 6. Inherent design of doghouse yields 5 and 6 run leaner.
Airflow power plate:
something to consider in the effort to equalize airflow to all cylinders. RJC racing developed this product. At first, many were skeptical. Richard Clark completed his independent qualification of this part and confirmed RJC's claims. available thru the vendors, etc.
T-Stat outlet:
the stainless part # 6706 from Kirban's is a nice piece. would not bother with an OE steel replacement or an aluminum aftermarket one for concerns about corrosion - even if using regular antifreeze + distilled H2O.
Coolant hard pipe (heater):
from the pics, it's a little banged up. repops were made in stainless with and without the connections for the throttle body pre-heat lines. don't recall which vendors have them. Good used stock ones are around. just ask in the parts wanted section. Have to sign in to forum in order to read parts for sale and parts wanted sections.
those rubber caps on the throttle body pre-heat taps are an accident waiting to happen. plain edpm rubber vacuum cap is not the solution. if you keep the stock coolant pipe with these taps, suggest connecting them with real heater hose.
Engine block coolant drains:
the 86-87 "109" blocks have a drain plug installed between the two large freeze plugs. the brass plug requires a 9/32 square drive socket to remove. for ease in future coolant changes and effectively draining and flushing the block I replaced those plugs with these brass petcocks by Omix-Ada part # 17470.13. Used to be about $12 each but now on Amazon for less than $4. see them here.
Fuel pressure regulator:
kind of funny I found your current FPR on ebay as New condition for Mercedes here.
Anthony P
sharing knowledge with those who care to listen
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2007
- Messages
- 1,245
writing the previous segment re: fuel injectors caused me to re-examine the pics in post #1.
I can't see how this engine was capable to produce 480 HP at the wheels as the seller claimed....constructive analysis as follows:
--that's a stock cast aluminum inlet bell on a TA style turbo - the aluminum tit at 12 and 6 o'clock to retain the maf hose. A TA49 bell has an ID of 2.34" at the compressor housing. the stock cast AL bell has an OD of 2.34" after the flange. can't bore out a cast bell to eliminate the step lip at the compressor housing or machine to gasket match.
--wastegate actuator is non-adjustable. spring in stock actuator begins to move rod at about 8 psi.
--TTA intercooler is maxxed out and heat soaked at 360 bHP (flexplate).
--compressor housing and backplate sure do look to be the size of a stock Garrett TB0348
That said, fuel injectors could be the stock Bosch 0280150218 pintle-style. You can do a lot with clean stock injectors. Clean stock injectors, stock turbo and intercooler will max out at 360 bHP (flexplate HP) or about 290 at the wheels. A strong running bone stock engine at about 14 psig boost makes 290 bHP or about 230 wHP.
It really does not pay to clean and flow stock injectors to verify them. Pintle can be used up after all these years. With the ECM controling boost with the TT chip at mod stock, 18 psig boost max, you'll be about 330 bHP. While duty cycle is not yet maxed out for stock injectors, it's not a bad idea to choose injector size to be about 80% duty cycle. At this level, 42# disc injectors would be sufficient. could use 50# as well, injectors don't cost much today and Eric can successfully burn a chip for any of these injectors. Rotary Disc injectors spray pattern is better atomization of fuel than pintle style. Used injectors OK as long as they come with a flow test sheet.
Transmission:
previously noted you were planning on getting a correct TB 2004R unit from a TB trans shop. so some reading on identifying a TB trans. right side behind servo was an aluminum tag riveted to the case. Pink color was for '86, yellow color was for '87, letter code was BRF. A partial VIN was also stamped on the left rear edge of trans case just above lip of pan.
'86 TB trans would read 4GPxxxxxx.
4= Buick
G= 1986 model year
P= Pontiac, MI assembly
xxxxxx= last 6 digits of VIN
'87 TB trans would read 4HPxxxxxx.
4= Buick
H= 1987 model year
P= Pontiac, MI assembly
xxxxxx= last 6 digits of VIN
have to decide what stall converter. Stock 2400 rpm is fine for stock or mod stock. discuss with trans builder. have to share converter and stall info with TT for proper chip.
Transcooler:
every turbo buick should have a setup like the GNX - an external cooler mounted to the front of the rad support feeding the cooler in the radiator then returning to the trans. get an idea what some did viewing the pics in this thread.
https://turbobuick.com/threads/gnx-transmission-cooler.323782/
have to decide if you'd prefer a cooler that uses barbed fittings and hose/hose clamps to install or a cooler that you would use AN fittings and braided hose to install.
for the stock or mod-stock performance level, @David Husek, Buick Turbo Performance recommends the Hayden 678 as a good choice for a stock converter inline with a factory cooler. It is easy to install also. see Hayden cooler catalog specs here.
For coolers having NPT connections for use with AN hose like the B&M supercoolers, remember that Long/TruCool is the company that actually makes the coolers. These coolers cost twice as much when they come in a B&M labeled box. look at the TruCool models # L7B or M7B. Specs are here.
best prices for the Hayden or TruCool coolers are on Amazon via 3rd party auto parts sellers.
I choose the TruCool M7B ($62 via Amazon seller) and used -6 AN Vibrant hose and fittings purchased from Summit. I'll add a parts list with #'s at a later date.
I can't see how this engine was capable to produce 480 HP at the wheels as the seller claimed....constructive analysis as follows:
--that's a stock cast aluminum inlet bell on a TA style turbo - the aluminum tit at 12 and 6 o'clock to retain the maf hose. A TA49 bell has an ID of 2.34" at the compressor housing. the stock cast AL bell has an OD of 2.34" after the flange. can't bore out a cast bell to eliminate the step lip at the compressor housing or machine to gasket match.
--wastegate actuator is non-adjustable. spring in stock actuator begins to move rod at about 8 psi.
--TTA intercooler is maxxed out and heat soaked at 360 bHP (flexplate).
--compressor housing and backplate sure do look to be the size of a stock Garrett TB0348
That said, fuel injectors could be the stock Bosch 0280150218 pintle-style. You can do a lot with clean stock injectors. Clean stock injectors, stock turbo and intercooler will max out at 360 bHP (flexplate HP) or about 290 at the wheels. A strong running bone stock engine at about 14 psig boost makes 290 bHP or about 230 wHP.
It really does not pay to clean and flow stock injectors to verify them. Pintle can be used up after all these years. With the ECM controling boost with the TT chip at mod stock, 18 psig boost max, you'll be about 330 bHP. While duty cycle is not yet maxed out for stock injectors, it's not a bad idea to choose injector size to be about 80% duty cycle. At this level, 42# disc injectors would be sufficient. could use 50# as well, injectors don't cost much today and Eric can successfully burn a chip for any of these injectors. Rotary Disc injectors spray pattern is better atomization of fuel than pintle style. Used injectors OK as long as they come with a flow test sheet.
Transmission:
previously noted you were planning on getting a correct TB 2004R unit from a TB trans shop. so some reading on identifying a TB trans. right side behind servo was an aluminum tag riveted to the case. Pink color was for '86, yellow color was for '87, letter code was BRF. A partial VIN was also stamped on the left rear edge of trans case just above lip of pan.
'86 TB trans would read 4GPxxxxxx.
4= Buick
G= 1986 model year
P= Pontiac, MI assembly
xxxxxx= last 6 digits of VIN
'87 TB trans would read 4HPxxxxxx.
4= Buick
H= 1987 model year
P= Pontiac, MI assembly
xxxxxx= last 6 digits of VIN
have to decide what stall converter. Stock 2400 rpm is fine for stock or mod stock. discuss with trans builder. have to share converter and stall info with TT for proper chip.
Transcooler:
every turbo buick should have a setup like the GNX - an external cooler mounted to the front of the rad support feeding the cooler in the radiator then returning to the trans. get an idea what some did viewing the pics in this thread.
https://turbobuick.com/threads/gnx-transmission-cooler.323782/
have to decide if you'd prefer a cooler that uses barbed fittings and hose/hose clamps to install or a cooler that you would use AN fittings and braided hose to install.
for the stock or mod-stock performance level, @David Husek, Buick Turbo Performance recommends the Hayden 678 as a good choice for a stock converter inline with a factory cooler. It is easy to install also. see Hayden cooler catalog specs here.
For coolers having NPT connections for use with AN hose like the B&M supercoolers, remember that Long/TruCool is the company that actually makes the coolers. These coolers cost twice as much when they come in a B&M labeled box. look at the TruCool models # L7B or M7B. Specs are here.
best prices for the Hayden or TruCool coolers are on Amazon via 3rd party auto parts sellers.
I choose the TruCool M7B ($62 via Amazon seller) and used -6 AN Vibrant hose and fittings purchased from Summit. I'll add a parts list with #'s at a later date.
Tizzledizzle
New Member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2018
- Messages
- 22
@Anthonyp I don’t wish bad weather for you, but do appreciate how your spending some of that time locked up inside! Also I appreciate all the advice and parts suggestions.
I’m not worried about factory correctness. I want to build a healthy, modernized car that will put a grin on your face. Ultimately I want to see it go around a track confidently and comfortably, and then turn around and haul my daughters to dance class.
That interior you sent me doesn’t match my car. It’s tan leather. Believe I read that makes it 1 of 300.
I’m not worried about factory correctness. I want to build a healthy, modernized car that will put a grin on your face. Ultimately I want to see it go around a track confidently and comfortably, and then turn around and haul my daughters to dance class.
That interior you sent me doesn’t match my car. It’s tan leather. Believe I read that makes it 1 of 300.
Attachments
Tizzledizzle
New Member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2018
- Messages
- 22
Here’s my progress decoding the trunk tag
Ag1 6 way power seat
As7 split bench
At6 bucket seat recline passenger
Au3 - power door locks
A01 - t8nted windows
A31 - power windows
A90 - power trunk release
Bc1
Bd1 - exterior
Bf2
Bs1 acoustical insulation package
Bv8 ORNAMENTATION, EXTR DR HANDLE, LOCK CYLINDER
Bx5 roof drip painted
By1
B24 side window reveal
B34 front floor mats
B35 rear floor mats
B71 wheel well molding colored
B72 belt reveal colored
B77 w/s reveal colored
B79 exterior rr end
B81 molding backside delete
B89 rr window reveal
B91 door edge guard
B94
Cd4 windshield wiper 2 speed
C18 arm and blade wsw
C49 rear window defogger
C60 air conditioning
De9 storage console
D64visor vanity mirror lighted
D68 remote controlled exterior mirror
D71 gear speedometer driven
E5z adaptor Speedo delete
Fe3 suspension system sport
Ffl Flint Michigan paint
Gmd gmad plant
Gu6 3.42 axle ratio
G80 limited slip differential
G87 8.50 ring gear
J41 per front disc rear cast iron drum
J50 power brakes
K09 120 amp generator
K34 electric cruis control
Lc2 3.8l turbo v6
Mw9 th 2004r
Mx0 auto transmission with overdrive
Ma5 emission system
Np5 leather sport steering wheel
Nq5
N33 tilt wheel
N89
P0n
Qyz
Tl6 black grill
Tl8
Tt5 tungsten high beams
T47 union city body
T82 headlamp control switch, twilight
T83 headlamps dr special
T93 tail and stop special
Ua1 heavy duty battery
Uq1 sterling radio
Us6
Uw4 concert surround sound
Ux1 radio
U23 trip odomoter
Vd6 aluminum bumper braces
Vd7 aluminum bumper brace
V73 Usa canada
Wg1 power 6 way driver seat
W02 exterior sport package
W05
Yr1 front seat custom
J47
Ys1
Yt1 custom door and quarter
Yt9 Fisher body
Y56 t package
58u
6yX
621 spring oh front
622
629
7yw spring rh front
8pz spring oh rear
9pz spring oh rear
Ag1 6 way power seat
As7 split bench
At6 bucket seat recline passenger
Au3 - power door locks
A01 - t8nted windows
A31 - power windows
A90 - power trunk release
Bc1
Bd1 - exterior
Bf2
Bs1 acoustical insulation package
Bv8 ORNAMENTATION, EXTR DR HANDLE, LOCK CYLINDER
Bx5 roof drip painted
By1
B24 side window reveal
B34 front floor mats
B35 rear floor mats
B71 wheel well molding colored
B72 belt reveal colored
B77 w/s reveal colored
B79 exterior rr end
B81 molding backside delete
B89 rr window reveal
B91 door edge guard
B94
Cd4 windshield wiper 2 speed
C18 arm and blade wsw
C49 rear window defogger
C60 air conditioning
De9 storage console
D64visor vanity mirror lighted
D68 remote controlled exterior mirror
D71 gear speedometer driven
E5z adaptor Speedo delete
Fe3 suspension system sport
Ffl Flint Michigan paint
Gmd gmad plant
Gu6 3.42 axle ratio
G80 limited slip differential
G87 8.50 ring gear
J41 per front disc rear cast iron drum
J50 power brakes
K09 120 amp generator
K34 electric cruis control
Lc2 3.8l turbo v6
Mw9 th 2004r
Mx0 auto transmission with overdrive
Ma5 emission system
Np5 leather sport steering wheel
Nq5
N33 tilt wheel
N89
P0n
Qyz
Tl6 black grill
Tl8
Tt5 tungsten high beams
T47 union city body
T82 headlamp control switch, twilight
T83 headlamps dr special
T93 tail and stop special
Ua1 heavy duty battery
Uq1 sterling radio
Us6
Uw4 concert surround sound
Ux1 radio
U23 trip odomoter
Vd6 aluminum bumper braces
Vd7 aluminum bumper brace
V73 Usa canada
Wg1 power 6 way driver seat
W02 exterior sport package
W05
Yr1 front seat custom
J47
Ys1
Yt1 custom door and quarter
Yt9 Fisher body
Y56 t package
58u
6yX
621 spring oh front
622
629
7yw spring rh front
8pz spring oh rear
9pz spring oh rear
Tizzledizzle
New Member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2018
- Messages
- 22
