Why does no one use the 3.8 V6 out of a camaro?

[CTX-SLPR]

Howdy,

Just to entertain myself which is a stronger engine in base form as far a power handling capacity a 109 3.8 or the 3.8 RWD out of a late model camaro? I keep wondering with all of those engines running around why hasn't someone used one for a turbo application yet? Do the heads suck? The blocks are weak? Afraid to make custom headers? Any ideas?

A friend is looking at putting a better engine in his Landcruiser and he's looking for EFI V6 so the engines out of the camaro's seem perfect, this got me thinking why not use one as the base for another 3.8 turbo project seeing as I can pick up a running v6 with tranny, harness and computer for about $800 for a yard, why can't I just fab headers, put some lower compression pistons designed for the 3800SC in it and reprogram the PCM?

 

[Drac0nic]

probably has to do with the fact that the GN engine is packaged in vehicles. There's a ton more GN motors out there then boosted RWD 3800s. This also leads to there being a lot bigger aftermarket for the 3.8Ls. You're talking hacking in the SC box, some block parts (pistons) and headers that are probably custom at the very least. By the time this happens, most people with a camaro would rather have an LS1 swap or a whole different car. I wouldn't be using OEM SC pistons with high boost, I think they're hypers. Far as it goes, I imagine the heads flow better by a not too small margin on the late 3800s, due to design revisions. Definitely lots of potential, but not exploited by many in a RWD platform. Supposedly a big reason the GTPs and similar don't have more power then they do (not to say that they're weak) is that the transmissions don't hold together well in the FWDs with stock parts. A decent 700 would be a *lot* easier to build up.

 

[turbodave231]

The 3800 Gen II V6 has a very strong bottom end. It makes the 109 block look like the weaker little sister. Powder metal main cap with cross bolts on all positions. No need for a girdle or beefier castings.

No reason why this engine shouldn't do great in a boosted environment. Nobody's done anything with it....yet. A 4L60E bolts right to it and the heads aren't bad either. The balance shaft would need to go away (horsepower loser) and 3800 Gen II supercharged pistons and rods would need to be used.

Most F-body guys have there heads stuck in the V8 world and don't care to mess with V6's.

Dave

 

[CTX-SLPR]

ok for all of you electron heads out there, how hard would it be to make a stock GN ECM run the Series II V6. I'm pretty sure most of the sensors would be the same, with the exception of crank and cam sensors? Seems like a better idea than hacking into a box never designed to run a turbo. This is become quite interesting.
Doing some research lastnight and Diamond makes pistons for both the L67 3800SC and the L36 3800 NA V6. Comparing the price of the "off-the-shelf" pistons and the cost of my custom Diamonds and its pretty much the same ~$650 for pistons, pins, and rings so there is one option. Flattops are all that are needed for 8.1:1 with the huge 77.2cc chambers. another option is to machine down a set of 2" big end 400 SBC rods and look for a set of flattops intended for a 3.5" stroke and 6.5" rod 3.8 stroker. I think either option would be about equal in price though you'd have to be far more patient to try to find the right parts for the second one. Maybe I'll do this next after I get the Riv-Cruiser up and running in 06.

 

[CTX-SLPR]

nevermind on the sbc idea, got the wrong dimentions for the rod diameter, guess your left with custom pistons, or l67 pistons which look to be the same price so I guess you get to pick what compression you want.

 

[kshef]

the GN's 109 is waaaaaay stronger than those L36's in the camoros
the new Series 3 3.8 in the grand prix's is pretty stoutwith its powdered metal components, but nothing like a GN 3.8

the quickest known "3800" runs 10's

 

[CTX-SLPR]

The limiting factor on the FWD 3800's is not the engine, its the tranny. I can attest to this fact as my bone stock L67 3800SC is killing my tranny. If you look at the basic engine design it looks a ton like a v6 LS-1. I'm voting if you put L67 pistons in a L36 and added a turbo its more durable than a 109. Powered metal maincaps and rods, crossbolted mains.... I think its more tradition than anything else.

 

[CTX-SLPR]

The limiting factor on the FWD 3800's is not the engine, its the tranny. I can attest to this fact as my bone stock L67 3800SC is killing my tranny. If you look at the basic engine design it looks a ton like a v6 LS-1. I'm voting if you put L67 pistons in a L36 and added a turbo its more durable than a 109. Powered metal maincaps and rods, crossbolted mains.... I think its more tradition than anything else.

 

[Marc87GN]

Originally posted by CTX-SLPR
The limiting factor on the FWD 3800's is not the engine, its the tranny. I can attest to this fact as my bone stock L67 3800SC is killing my tranny. If you look at the basic engine design it looks a ton like a v6 LS-1. I'm voting if you put L67 pistons in a L36 and added a turbo its more durable than a 109. Powered metal maincaps and rods, crossbolted mains.... I think its more tradition than anything else.

It's the 4T65-E. It's only rated for 280 lb-ft and after that, it starts to come apart. my friends GTP has broken his twice and it's an expensive repair each time. If you have the 4T60, it's even weaker. It's not a cheap transaxle to work on, but I believe Yank makes an upgraded 4T65-E for the FWD crown.

As far as working on a Camaro with a V6, I think it's a sin to even buy a mustang or camaro with a V6 JMO. The GN is the only RWD car I would ever own with a V6 and that's because of the factory turbo. Damn turbocharged Ls1s trap 125+ with barely any boost on pump gas.

 

[protracracing]

http://www.camarov6.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=4

here is a link to the v6 camaro guys.
hope this helps
Dennis

 

[TurboCustomz]

I know those 3800's are fairly stout because we put a timing controller and a 200 shot on one for fun one time and only blew the intake out once.
I think it was said best above, why would you turbo the V6 in a camaro or firebird when you can get 700HP out of a STOCK LS1 with the proper tune and still drive it daily and get 25+ MPG.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by TurboCustomz
when you can get 700HP out of a STOCK LS1 with the proper tune and still drive it daily and get 25+ MPG.

Just like getting 700 HP out of a stock TR

 

[CTX-SLPR]

Also who says I want the original packageing for the engine? I'm thinking using this as a transplant into something else, not trying to turbo something inside the cramped engine bay of a 4th gen F-body.

 

[LV GN]

Originally posted by Marc87GN
It's the 4T65-E. It's only rated for 280 lb-ft and after that, it starts to come apart. my friends GTP has broken his twice and it's an expensive repair each time. If you have the 4T60, it's even weaker. It's not a cheap transaxle to work on, but I believe Yank makes an upgraded 4T65-E for the FWD crown.

As far as working on a Camaro with a V6, I think it's a sin to even buy a mustang or camaro with a V6 JMO. The GN is the only RWD car I would ever own with a V6 and that's because of the factory turbo. Damn turbocharged Ls1s trap 125+ with barely any boost on pump gas.

the latest issue of national dragster talks about gm's new 4t65e that can handel 1200 hp. it the issue with the pink camaro doing a wheelie.

 

[ChrisCairns]

Originally posted by LV GN
it the issue with the pink camaro

Is that why you got that issue??

 

[Marc87GN]

Originally posted by LV GN
the latest issue of national dragster talks about gm's new 4t65e that can handel 1200 hp. it the issue with the pink camaro doing a wheelie.

I can only imagine the cost of that transaxle. Is it in the production line models or is it an aftermarket build up?

 

[CTX-SLPR]

guess I better get one of those then, considering 240 just broke mine. I should have known better than buy a midyear introduction first run car. I love the car but right now I think its decided to take dump on me, which sucks! I wonder how radical a change they made to get a tranny that has been known to fail at 50k miles attached to a 240hp engine into something to take 1200hp. You sure your not thinking of the 4L65E?

 

[86brick]

Originally posted by turbodave231

No reason why this engine shouldn't do great in a boosted environment. Nobody's done anything with it....yet.

Really?

http://www.intense-racing.com/GTP/TurboGP.html

Low 10's sounds like something to me....

I believe Intense www.intense-racing.com is also the company that builds the bullet proof 4t65e and they have all of the parts needed to make it hold up to some serious power....

 

[LV GN]

Originally posted by Marc87GN
I can only imagine the cost of that transaxle. Is it in the production line models or is it an aftermarket build up?

it was in the $4000.00 range and yes its the 4t65e for sport compact racing. i only got to read part of it between runs at the nationals this weekend. but after rebuilding many of these trans. i would like to know what parts are inside.

 

[LV GN]

Originally posted by ChrisCairns
Is that why you got that issue??

i saw the shiney top of that car and thought of you and your son jack!