yet another T56 question

[GNVAIR]

Basically you will have a 13 second car. Maybe a 12 second one abusing the hell out of it. For what reason?? To say you have a Buick V6 under the hood. Understand what everyone is saying here. This is a relatively large engine with a large single turbo and a very small power band. It is not like a rice mobile that revs to 8,000rpms. Buick V6's are done at 5,000. Pushing them to 6,000 with stock block, rods and cranks ruins a lot of expensive parts. If you cant see our reason, then you are most likely on the wrong board. All of us are here to share our thoughts and experiences. Experience says these engines work best with an automatic. PERIOD!
My buddy has a 96 TA with bolt ons and runs 12 teens with his 6 speed. I have no idea why you dont just work with what you have. Bottom line is, if you want to build a 10 second car with Buick V6 power, plan on using an automatic. If not, you are wasting money, time and space.

 

[Turbo-Rich]

Originally posted by Sleeper
One of the ways it makes the car slower, is the time it takes you to shift. I don't care how fast your right arm is... you can't match the speed of the automatic. I used to run a Muncie rockcrusher with a vertigal gate shifter [pretty hard to miss a shift with that shifter ] and I thought I could bang the gears pretty good, but was no match for the automatic. And as Taffy said, you loose boost when you shift, even power shifting and the torque curve is very low RPM wise.


Paul

I dissagree that with a stick "you can't match the speed of the automatic". I too have ran a Rockcrusher(no-syncro's) & an inline shifter & I say there's no way in Hell an automatics faster.
Especially when your foot never leaves the gas pedal
No personal attack on you Paul, really. I just happen to dissagree.
I also don't agree that you'll lose boost with a stick either.
There are plenty of ppl running sticks & turbo's & do NOT have this problem. I think the main dissadvantage of a stick would be that you couldn't load the TC & spool up to launch. I know there are other dissadvantages but there are some advantages too.
I'm sure 80% of you will dissagree, that's ok.
I doubt you can present an aruement I haven't heard before.
I don't think I've ever seen a more "anti-manual trans." group than you all, lol.
What I can't belive is that someone here wants help setting up a V6/6 speed & no-one is like "Bitchin'" & willing to help.
Even if it isn't YOUR first choice in trans., why not help someone that it is out? What's the risk of that? We might all even learn something. That would be terrible wouldn't it;-)
BTW,
didn't Buddy Ingersol run a manual trans.
If I remember right he started with an automatic because he aslo was told the same myths about automatics.
After grenading several auto's he INSISTED on the switch to manual the next season dispite what his peers believed & that's when he went to setting records.
At least that's loosely how I believe the story to goes.
I'm sure you Buddy fans will chime in with EXACT facts.

 

[GNVAIR]

Rich, the guy is building a street car not a 6,7,8 or even 9 second car. Automatics do shift faster only from the fact that you are dealing with planetaries changing the overall ratios giving you your effective "gear". It will take you atleast 1 second to move that shifter and no flame, but that is just the human factor.
The other arguement for the automatic is being able to load the turbo.....which you hit upon. These cars make their power down low as previously stated. If you dont get it within the first 60 feet, then you are done. Thats just the way the turbo V6 Buick engines are. The sub 10 second guys have have engines that might spin higher. Heck, Im sure Duttweiler's and even Buddy Ingersoll's cars were spun well past 7,000 rpms......but you have to consider they were in a race environment.
The Lenco was the preferred trans back when Buddy ran his car in the mid 80's. Now it is the Liberty 5 speed like they run in Pro Stock, but again........we arent going to lauch a street car at 7,000 rpms at every light.
Yes, there are plenty of cars out there with turbos and sticks, but usually they are smaller engines with small turbos OR larger engines with twins. What makes the Buick stand out is that it is a relatively large displacement for a single turbo. The stick probably would be fine if there were twin turbos involved.
I am not saying this to bash anyone or dash anyones dreams, but these are realities. I have a turbo Buick V6 powered Corvair. It has a 4 speed behind it. I go through the samethings that Sleeper explained. I am not about to install a 2 step or launch it at redline everytime. What I am going to do is make a new pair of headers to mount 2 smaller T3's so I have the instantaneous spool.
You can make anything work if you have cubic dollars and the time and patience to make it happen. The guy wanted to go fast and figured the Buick engine would be the best bet. Most of us give advice of what works. I have personally tried the stick behind the Buick engine and it isnt worth the time, money or aggravation.

 

[Sleeper]

Turbo-Rich
No offence taken I guess Lee pretty well summed up what I was going to say. The main point being, that you can't use any other car setup as a comparison. The TR engine setup sits in a class on it's own. I used to have a 69 Nova SS that also had a RockCrusher and V gate shifter, it was a completely different beast all together.

We are not anti stick We are( I think I can speak for Lee here as well) just trying to save some people the $$$, pain, and headaches that we went through. Hey a stick behind the right motor is a blast. One of the engines I had in the Toy, was a twin cam, hemi head, dual side draft, 12:1 slugs, 8000 RPM 18RGU Toyota race motor... It was fun to drive with a stick
Lee and I speak from actual first hand experience using a Buick 3.8 Turbo motor...Not theory, or bench racing. Facts are facts. Now personal taste is different, and if the person doesn't really care about money and how fast the car will be, and just needs to row... I have no problem sharing how I did my set up, and I imagine Lee will share his knowledge as well.
I think we come off as being a bit negative because we seem to run into the same arguements over and over again. If our first hand information is not good enough for the inquiring parties (and we have posted a lot of details) then just go and do it, and quit throwing things like " the Toyota Supra has a stick" at us.
( Not directed at you Turbo-Rich)
I step down from my soap box
(Lee I hope you don't mind that I spoke for you)

Paul

 

[c&cgn]

Turbo-Rich

93 formula has heard good things about TR's and how easy it is to get them to go fast, and to get into the 11's. That's fine, there are proven recipes to get there and that is what everyone is saying. Forget the manual, forget the 700, go with what works. Buick V6 with the 200-4R and 3.42 posi.

If 93 formula wants to find out what a real Buick runs like he can come for a ride in my car.

There is no point in trying to re-invent the wheel here. If he has unlimited amounts of $$ then go for it. I doubt that is the case, so as I said previously if he absolutely must keep his car then he needs to do a complete transplant of motor tranny and rear-end. Otherwise, go out and buy a whole TR and do it right. There are plenty of guys in the club out here that can help you with a TR or a TR drivetrain but nobody is going to be able to help you if you insist on the manual tranny and different gears. We just won't know how to make it work and personally, I would not have the desire to spend that much time working on your car to get it figured out when I could be racing mine!

 

[93formula]

YES YES YES!!!! take me for a ride!!!!! i wanna know what this auto is all about. thereare two of us in the newly formed f body club that want to do this so we have many questions, but shhh dont tell the lt1 guys ive got another thread going in another forum regarding this issue and am now leaning towards the auto tranny, which i have many questions about. is there a way i can contact you and perhaps arrange a meeting? theres me and a buddy who wanna do this swap into our firebirds. so we have a ton of qeustions. i did have my heart set on keeping the t56 though thats why it may seem i was so stubborn on retaining it.

that being said GNVAIR i am interested in your twin turbo application with your manual. have questions regarding the turbos and the manifolds, cost wise ofcourse

 

[GNVAIR]

Paul.....you know I agree with everything you said. I am with you all the way
My best advice to 93Formula........hang around the tech forum on this site and learn what works and what doesnt. Stick with proven combinations. If you arent familiar with these engines, then ask before spending the money. Too many guys come into these cars thinking that dropping money on a lot of high dollar stuff will make it go fast when actuality, it doesnt.
A nice single turbo application with an overdriven automatic (I prefer the TH2004r......but again, I might be biased )
and mild 3.23 or 3.42 gearing can be made to run well into the 10's. Isnt that what you want afterall?

 

[93formula]

woah!! tens? with gears and a bit of modding? i me thinks the auto may be the way to go what the diff between the 2004r and the 7004r? strength? is it harder to find?

and thanks every one for all your time and patience, im just one of those people who needs to aks questions if i dont understand why.

 

[Sleeper]

93formula
If you are really serious about doing this swap, you need to read, read ,read. There is a ton of information on these sites, everything you will need to know. I spent a winter just reading and researching before I attempted the swap. Get to understand the basics of the TR drivetrain and start off simple. There are many different sections on these sites. If you are looking for specific info, do a search first (The little button up top to the right ) Then you can ask educated questions.
The swap will be hard enough to do without complicating it with too many go fast goodies. (It also will make it a pig to tune initially) You don't need to do a lot to this motor to make it scare you.

I don't know if you have done any swaps before, but IMHO I would spend more time finding out what is involved in the actual swap itself, i.e. fuel pump, fuel line plumbing, electrical, gauge hook up, wiring harness interface, ECM, motor and tranny mounts, driveshaft, engine/driveline phasing, down pipe and exhaust, cooling/rad, intercooler placement, power steering hookup, what will need to be fabricated?, what will need to be farmed out?, do you have access to all the tools you will need?... I am just beginning. And the most important item, can you even get your hands on a good complete motor??? Trying to piece one together will cost big $$$ and some of the brackets and accessories will be next to impossible to find separately. You have your work cut out for you.

Paul

 

[93formula]

thanks for your support i have been doing some research and all looks good so far. ive managed to contact a local guy in my area who looks like is willing to help. all in all im looking forward to a fast ride and driveabilty to boot i probably will complete the swap in the winter/spring time. i just need to knwo what to have done to the motor while it is still out of the engine bay.

 

[mcss383]

if your just wanting low 12's/high 11's why not just stick with the lt1? its not hard to get them to low 12s.

 

[93formula]

i want better milage and drivailty. and also in a road race situation the GN motor will take off like a bat outa hell. im just tired of th stupid opti going south every 8 months and things breaking. from my understanding the GN motors are almost bullit proof.

 

[mcss383]

yeah, the opti is pretty much a POS. lol

25+mpg not good enough? You should drive my car...

 

[93formula]

25 mpg? try 13 mpg with a cam thats 236/236 560/560 ill go for the GN motor thats gonna be emmisions legal, have waaaay better milage and the same amount of power. right now i have to tear apart the front of the motor, drop the rad every two years for emmision testing so i can swap in a regular cam. PITA. im just gonna keep an eye out for a 3.8 turbo and go that route.

 

[GNVAIR]

Keith Mease who comes on this board has a 96 Trans Am M6 with mild mods (headers, mild comp cams, ported stock intake, LT1 edit mods and a set of 4.10's has gone 12teens at 114 with his TA and says there is plenty more in it once the heads are ported. It can be done. His 4200lb 95 Impala SS has gone 12.80's at 109 with 6lbs of boost via twin T3 turbos (complete with the stock 4L60E and 3.08 gears. There is a lot to be said for an LT1......especially one that is turbo charged. He has one customer that had a single T72 equipt Impala SS that went 10.70's.

 

[mcss383]

oh man, go with a milder cam, get the heads and intake ported, long tube headers, exhaust, and then best part....an ATI procharger. So hello to low 11's.

My friend has pretty much this combo (well he has the auto), with a tad more, but it works nicely. 45x hp at the wheels and i think around 500 ft-lbs, all on 6psi of boost. He was still running stock tranny (vigilante tc), stock rear and no cage and pulling 11.1's....

 

[93formula]

wow, those are pretty impressive numbers. this may sound funny but i dont want to go the supercharger route. i just hate the loose fan belt whine they have. the sound a turbo makes is just different. and i love it when the waste gate opens up. i could just spruce up the lt1. or perhaps get a turbo kit for my motor. but as i have been looking around i just cant seem to justify 3-4 grand on just 6psi of boost. i need more also the 3.8 turbo wieghs about 200 lbs less then the lt1 does, bringing a better wieght balance to the car. i will just find the GN motor build it up and when the lt1 blows the bottom end out ill drop in the GN motor. right now on the local board everyones just trash talking about how fast there lt1 is, blahblahblah. well im sure with the turbo 3.8 theyll all keep there mouths shut when they get there butts handed to them via six cylinders is it just me or is everyone trying to hoard the 3.8 motor for TRs?

 

[Turbo-Rich]

Originally posted by 93formula
i just cant seem to justify 3-4 grand on just 6psi of boost.

I totally agree with that!
The Prochargers are sweet but 1950's MPAX made that much boost. The procharger has a cooling advantage but still not nearly worth the $$$ IMO.

 

[Turbo-Rich]

Originally posted by GNVAIR
. It will take you atleast 1 second to move that shifter and no flame, but that is just the human factor.

Come on man!
1 sec. to shift a gear
So on a 10 sec. pass, 3 seconds are wasted shifting.
That just doesn't make any sense!
Why do you think they make shift kits?
To make your auto shift LIKE A STICK.
Why do you think they make higher stall stall convertors?
To make your auto launch LIKE A STICK.
& so on & so on.......
No flame GNVAIR, I get most of your "THEORIES", heard them over & over again but this one is just over the top.

Ok, I know where you guys are comming from & your not wrong in your reasoning at all. The easy route has already been mapped out so why bother to be creative or origional.

 

[Sleeper]

Easy there big fella
Have you ever run a stick behind A TR motor??? We have! I speak from first hand experience... I could not shift as fast as the automatic even using a V gate shifter, and I have been around quick cars for a long time. Remember a lot has to do with the internals of the tranny itself. Yes racers use Lenco's blah blah bla.. but we are talking about every day drivers here, not all out racing trannys.
We am not telling anyone not to be creative and original, just look at our cars : We are just trying to share what we have experienced and save someone the headaches.
To me this argument is like someone saying that they want to run 27lbs of boost on pump gas, because he heard that "more boost" makes you go faster and some guy with a race car... Yes almost anything can be done but at what cost?

This is not meant to dis anybody, but most of the people that are asking about the sticks, don't have that much experience with swaps in general and very little experience with the TR motor setup. They seem to be caught up in the fantasy of bench racing.
If it really is personal taste, they should go ahead and do it and let us know how they like it.

Paul