No I have not read the rule book, but I go under the premise that people are innocent until proven guilty-you apparently go with the guilty until proven innocent approach. I know there are tons of sub headings in each class I think that if a guy was going to build a max effort car he would check the rules before building the car for a particular class. I also think that if the rules were so tight as you have suggested I think the officials would actually check the items covered under thre rules. You are bascially saying that this guy(I don't know the guy at all) purposely built a car that was not legal for a class the officials weren't smart enough to see it even though we all know that Stage II heads look nothing like production heads and Buick V6 engines are not the oddest engine used in this type of racing so I would suspect the inspection process is pretty thorough. I do have one question though--how are you going to check the rules for the class he was running when you are not sure which class he was running?
285mph buick v6 Trans Am
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No I have not read the rule book, but I go under the premise that people are innocent until proven guilty-you apparently go with the guilty until proven innocent approach. I know there are tons of sub headings in each class I think that if a guy was going to build a max effort car he would check the rules before building the car for a particular class. I also think that if the rules were so tight as you have suggested I think the officials would actually check the items covered under thre rules. You are bascially saying that this guy(I don't know the guy at all) purposely built a car that was not legal for a class the officials weren't smart enough to see it even though we all know that Stage II heads look nothing like production heads and Buick V6 engines are not the oddest engine used in this type of racing so I would suspect the inspection process is pretty thorough. I do have one question though--how are you going to check the rules for the class he was running when you are not sure which class he was running?
I will explain it again for you. Back then,... I looked closely at the car. It had Stage II heads. No question. I looked at his class designation. I then went back to the motorhome and looked up the rules for that class that he had entered his car in. The rules were very specific on the cylinder heads allowed. VERY SPECIFIC. You would have to be a dunce to misinterpret it. He was cheating. You can take that one to the bank. How he got through tech is a very good question. I even went to the tech tent and clued them in. They just shrugged it off. Lost a little respect for that organization at that point.
Not sure if he's cheating now. We'll soon know for sure. But,... he was definitely cheating back then. And if that's the kind of fella you look up to, have at it.
Like I said I don't know the guy so I am not standing up for him but you saying you saw it still doesn't prove anything as far as I am concerned. So is it a conspriacy that the officals wern't concerned, are they all in it together? Why have the "VERY SPECIFIC" rules you referred to if no one even checks the items covered under the rules. Did the rules say only casting number 25536702(TTA head) were allowed? If so it would have been easy to check the casting number.
My bud just called me back, and yes, his dad still gets the rulebooks every year. Today or tomorrow, I will have the rulebook in my hand, and I will quote the section pertaining to the cylinder heads allowed for the BGC/D class. Will that satisfy you?
I also mentioned to him about this car showing up again for another record and he remembers it very well.
Conspiracy at the tech tent? Don't know. What do you think? Why didn't they follow up on my lead? Maybe they're best buddies?
If you can prove that the rules for the D/BGC state that only the factory head casting number for a TTA can be used under the rules, then yes I will be satisfied if we see a pic of his engine and it does indeed have Stage II heads. What if there is no casting number listed in the rules--will you be satisified and retract your cheating comment?
Raymond Bunch
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Steve,
If Don said it had Stage ll heads on it, it did. The man has been around and know's his stuff. Maybe the official that looked the car over didn't know what they were looking at. Buick v6 are probably pretty rare in a class like that. Who knows?
I am not doubting the man can correctly identify a Stage II head but what has not been proven is whether or not a Stage II head is "cheating". I just think there should be proof before accusations are made.
Raymond Bunch
"Turbo Enthusiast"
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:biggrin: I like my missions.
I have a 2009 rulebook.(don't ask why..open truck record)You'll like what you find Don.
Hmmm. I was kinda hoping someone would prove me wrong. Very sad.
I just got off the phone with Gary Hart who is the record holder in AA/BGC(I think that is right) and he said that the D/BGC class falls into the Modified Category and any mods can be done to the engine including a complete engine swap as long as the engine falls into the cubic range of the class. He said in the production classes the original engine and components must be used but in the modified class anything goes. Below is a qoute from the SCTA website which says what the modified class is for and it states that if a car is modified beyond the what the production class allows then it goes into the modified classes. If you go to the link below you can see a break down of the classes and the BGC class falls under the Modified Category and the D means the engine must be between 261-305 cubic inches
http://www.scta-bni.org/Rulebook/car_classes.htm
MODIFIED CATEGORY
This category encompasses American and foreign coupes, sedans and pickups (with full stock beds), unaltered in height, width or contour, and with all stock panels mounted in original relationship to each other, which have been modified to such an extent as to no longer fit into the production category. Cars generally accepted as sports or Gran Tourissimo coupes are specifically forbidden. A generic requirement for this category is that the car must have been originally produced with suitable seating for four (4) average adult persons.
Within the Modified category, the amount of modification determines the class. For example, a Gas Coupe is basically a Production car with an engine swap, an Altered is a Gas Coupe with headlights and grille covered and the engine set back, a Competition Coupe is an Altered with the nose lengthened and streamlined.
Vehicles competing in the Competition Coupe and Modified Sports classes must have documentation showing the stock vehicle BEFORE modification.
It is REQUIRED that vehicles in this category which exceed 200 MPH, or if the existing record is over 200 MPH, must have roof rails.
GAS COUPE and SEDAN - /BGC, /GC
This class encompasses coupes, sedans, and convertibles which must have an engine swap, quickchange rear end, or a non-stock supercharger, any one of which makes the car ineligible for competition in Production class. Gas Coupe class includes Camaros, Barracudas, 1958 or later T-Birds, Mustangs, compacts and other cars of this type. 500 must have been produced yearly.
Engines classes allowed are: AA, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I,J, XF, XO, XXF, XXO
http://www.scta-bni.org/Rulebook/car_classes.htm
MODIFIED CATEGORY
This category encompasses American and foreign coupes, sedans and pickups (with full stock beds), unaltered in height, width or contour, and with all stock panels mounted in original relationship to each other, which have been modified to such an extent as to no longer fit into the production category. Cars generally accepted as sports or Gran Tourissimo coupes are specifically forbidden. A generic requirement for this category is that the car must have been originally produced with suitable seating for four (4) average adult persons.
Within the Modified category, the amount of modification determines the class. For example, a Gas Coupe is basically a Production car with an engine swap, an Altered is a Gas Coupe with headlights and grille covered and the engine set back, a Competition Coupe is an Altered with the nose lengthened and streamlined.
Vehicles competing in the Competition Coupe and Modified Sports classes must have documentation showing the stock vehicle BEFORE modification.
It is REQUIRED that vehicles in this category which exceed 200 MPH, or if the existing record is over 200 MPH, must have roof rails.
GAS COUPE and SEDAN - /BGC, /GC
This class encompasses coupes, sedans, and convertibles which must have an engine swap, quickchange rear end, or a non-stock supercharger, any one of which makes the car ineligible for competition in Production class. Gas Coupe class includes Camaros, Barracudas, 1958 or later T-Birds, Mustangs, compacts and other cars of this type. 500 must have been produced yearly.
Engines classes allowed are: AA, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I,J, XF, XO, XXF, XXO
I've been to the site. That is truly an over-simplification of the rules. It is not a simple paragraph in the rulebook. The rules for that class entail a few pages with referral to other sections for more complete detail on the rules. Particularly where it comes to the engine rules.
The rulebook is actually a bit confusing, but if you dig deep enough, you can find the details.
Much more confusing than the NHRA rulebook, if you can imagine that.
The rulebook is actually a bit confusing, but if you dig deep enough, you can find the details.
Much more confusing than the NHRA rulebook, if you can imagine that.
I am sure there is more in the rule book but according to Gray Hart the only classes that require a particular engine or head to be run are the Production Categories. He said once you get into the Modified Categories there are no limits to mods or engine swaps. He runs in the same Category only with a different engine designation(AA which is over 500 cubic inches I believe) and he runs a Studebaker with a twin turbo BBC!
Attachments
I stand corrected in this instance. My humble apologies to all.
Do you know if he holds any records in other classes with the same car?
Don, I think the problem comes from the PS (production Supercharged) class.
A SII TTA currently holds this record (see the picture of the TTA and it says E/PS on the window)
I'm pretty sure the motor in this class should be the production motor and not an SII motor, but an SII TTA has held this record for years.
Yeah, it looks like he grabbed D and E in the /PS class. What a nice guy.
edit: 'D' being 261 through 305 cid, and 'E' being 184 through 260 cid.
