#3 Exh Lifter Wearing Out - pics

[BEATAV8]

Thanks to WickedV6 for prompting me to have a closer look... otherwise this cam would've been re-used. Has ~2500 mile on it.

 

[artrenee10]

Flat tappet or roller??
Sucks either which way....:frown:

 

[Pablo]

Flat tappet or roller??
Sucks either which way....:frown:

That's a flat tappet lifter. Roller lifters have a little wheel on the end.

 

[Jerryl]

Thanks to WickedV6 for prompting me to have a closer look... otherwise this cam would've been re-used. Has ~2500 mile on it. ...........

If you don't mind me asking .........
What prompted the "closer look"?

 

[TurboDave]

Kinda ugly, but look what we took out of my Daughter's T several years ago!

 

[BEATAV8]

If you don't mind me asking .........
What prompted the "closer look"?

WickedV6 has seen many a flat tappet not make it past 5000 miles. He told me not to trust it... even though it had already gone ~2500 miles.

 

[BEATAV8]

Kinda ugly, but look what we took out of my Daughter's T several years ago!

Nasty.. that's where this one was heading too.

Even with a proper break-in and ZDDP... these things can't be trusted.

 

[Jerryl]

WickedV6 has seen many a flat tappet not make it past 5000 miles. He told me not to trust it... even though it had already gone ~2500 miles.

Understand.
I have been wondering if excessive engine RPM has anything to do with some of these failures. I am thinking "excessive" could be > 5400 (??)

 

[BEATAV8]

Understand.
I have been wondering if excessive engine RPM has anything to do with some of these failures. I am thinking "excessive" could be > 5400 (??)

I'm sure this one saw +6000 regularly. It's a deep 10 motor.

 

[Jerryl]

I'm sure this one saw +6000 regularly. It's a deep 10 motor.

Are these "stock type" or "high rev" lifters?
Do you "think" there is a correlation between RPM's and failure rates?

Edit:
Thanks for sharing!
I have some level of vested interest in the diagnosis.

 

[WIKEDV6]

Understand.
I have been wondering if excessive engine RPM has anything to do with some of these failures. I am thinking "excessive" could be > 5400 (??)

I am sure excessive RPM will accelerate the wear problem without a doubt. I have seen stockers shifting 4900-5200 RPM wear out too. I am not an expert in any way, I have a lot to learn but I have taken a part 15-20 motors with flat tappet cams and have seen plenty of wear. For some reason the stock factory cams lasts longer than the aftermarket cams, I think the ratio I saw was like 6 to 1. I also believe that the excessive load on the cam due higher spring pressure we put on plays a roll among other things. I had a car that had a small back fire now and then, I went crazy trying to pin point the issue, changed the usual, coil, wires, module, plugs and so on, no luck then I thought it was the Alky coming in too fast or too much but no luck there either. Finally, I chased the problem down to the worn cam lobe. My thinking is that; why take a chance if you can afford the roller setup and be done with it inn the first place. Fewer headaches in the long run also the worn metal off the cam/lifter has to go some where in the engine which can cause problems down the line.

HTH
Prasad

 

[quickt]

This dead horse was beat to death years ago. The 109 blocks have lifter bore alignment problems. Some are just worse than others. There was lots of info before the board crashed years ago. After loosing 3 engines in a row in my own car due to flat tappets I wont even install a flat tappet in a Buick. I would sell it first and buy a Ford. Hopefully you caught it early and have no other damage. I was not so lucky back in the day.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

I think if there were more grinds for the rollers alot more people would use them.

thats why i stay with flat tappets.

A.j.

 

[Jerryl]

This dead horse was beat to death years ago. The 109 blocks have lifter bore alignment problems. Some are just worse than others. There was lots of info before the board crashed years ago. After loosing 3 engines in a row in my own car due to flat tappets I wont even install a flat tappet in a Buick. I would sell it first and buy a Ford. Hopefully you caught it early and have no other damage. I was not so lucky back in the day.

Lonnie,
Thanks for the valuable input!
Although this is not my thread, I am merely trying to learn more from it.
Yes, I am aware of the “lifter bore misalignment" statements.
I have seen opposing statements from some experts. Some say this is myth, etc.
I am unsure and no expert, and no longer sure where I read all on this board this over the years. :tongue:
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/ge...h/128304-what-cams-will-live-our-engines.html

I would however question if the “horse is really dead”.
If the horse was death, no one would still be running a flat tappet, and every one would run a roller. I know quite a few DD's still running non-stock flat tappet cams.
Sure, there are MANY factors making that decision to switch to a roller, one being cost.
Rollers are definitely more reliable, and give overall better performance, no question about that.

Now, if you do this for a living, you could never afford the costs associated with warranty claims, and the degradation of reputation, so you say “Roller or nothing”, which increases the chance of success tremendously!
But hey, there is a recent thread where the comp rollers don’t have a stellar reputation either.

If you don’t do this for a living, or get paid to do this, it is still cheaper to go with a roller, “if” you get a failing set-up. :smile:

So I am not disagreeing, just trying to make a logical determination “if” rpm is a factor in life cycle reduction.
Provided of course that the motor runs on adequate ZZDP, good break-in procedures, etc. I was merely asking about the RPM, since the engine ran for 2500 miles etc.
My question is; Slow death, accelerated by RPM’s?

 

[bison]

I think if there were more grinds for the rollers alot more people would use them.

thats why i stay with flat tappets.

A.j.

You can order any grind you want on a roller:biggrin: On flat cams you can tell which lifters will wear the most. Just look at the pushrods with the engine running. he ones that spin the slowest will wear faster. The #3 exhaust is usually the slowest spinning lifter because of its placement more toward the center of the lobe. Dopey engineers f'd that up when they tried to copy the same basic blueprint the v-8 had.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

You can order any grind you want on a roller:biggrin: On flat cams you can tell which lifters will wear the most. Just look at the pushrods with the engine running. he ones that spin the slowest will wear faster. The #3 exhaust is usually the slowest spinning lifter because of its placement more toward the center of the lobe. Dopey engineers f'd that up when they tried to copy the same basic blueprint the v-8 had.

Smarty Pants!:tongue: you been kicking me in the ass all week!

LOL

yea but there expensive, and my cam grinder doesent carry any buick blanks... where would I get a blank?

I feel like I owe ya a drink now.

:redface: A.j.

 

[quickt]

Lonnie,
Thanks for the valuable input!
Although this is not my thread, I am merely trying to learn more from it.
Yes, I am aware of the “lifter bore misalignment" statements.
I have seen opposing statements from some experts. Some say this is myth, etc.
I am unsure and no expert, and no longer sure where I read all on this board this over the years. :tongue:
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/ge...h/128304-what-cams-will-live-our-engines.html

I would however question if the “horse is really dead”.
If the horse was death, no one would still be running a flat tappet, and every one would run a roller. I know quite a few DD's still running non-stock flat tappet cams.
Sure, there are MANY factors making that decision to switch to a roller, one being cost.
Rollers are definitely more reliable, and give overall better performance, no question about that.

Now, if you do this for a living, you could never afford the costs associated with warranty claims, and the degradation of reputation, so you say “Roller or nothing”, which increases the chance of success tremendously!
But hey, there is a recent thread where the comp rollers don’t have a stellar reputation either.

If you don’t do this for a living, or get paid to do this, it is still cheaper to go with a roller, “if” you get a failing set-up. :smile:

So I am not disagreeing, just trying to make a logical determination “if” rpm is a factor in life cycle reduction.
Provided of course that the motor runs on adequate ZZDP, good break-in procedures, etc. I was merely asking about the RPM, since the engine ran for 2500 miles etc.
My question is; Slow death, accelerated by RPM’s?

Info I found years ago might help. IMO RPM has nothing to do with it. ZZdP, bear grease, smoke and mirriors, war dance what ever your routine many have failed before they left the installers garage. The last one in my car was gone in 20 miles taking out the crank with it. That block when checked was the worst of all the blocks we checked. BTW I put a hard 28,000 miles on that block after the roller install and it was sold and they beat on it for a couple more years. Most posted the problem right here on this board. Each to thier own. Years ago we checked the lifter index of several blocks and found out of the 8 blocks we checked 4 we were certian cams would fail one was close and the last three we thought were all good. Looking back when the engine were torn down the 4 that were off the most had bad cams that had been removed. The other 4 had good cams. Thus the 50% chance senerio. In the present I tell guys if the cam you removed looks good then there is a good chance another flat tappet will live. If the cam is bad there is a good chance a flat tappet will fail. Thats system has worked so far. I also think its about the money. The roller kits seem to be in the $850. If you can do the flat tappet maybe get done for 1/3 the cost. Gamble IMO kinda like playiong craps. I dont think the comp lifters cause a cam to failure but they really do have a noise problem. I would deal with the noise v/s failure.

 

[bison]

Smarty Pants!:tongue: you been kicking me in the ass all week!

LOL

yea but there expensive, and my cam grinder doesent carry any buick blanks... where would I get a blank?

I feel like I owe ya a drink now.

:redface: A.j.

Not sure. I always got the cams (already ground) from the builders. I got one from DLS long ago. They are billet blanks and use the odd fire chain and a custom thrust assembly. Off the shelf pretty much covers anything with 224 degrees duration or less. After that its going to have to be custom on a billet blank. Over the years ive seen a lot of them really cheap (sometimes $50) with all the roundy round chit. Never thought much about it but they all more then likely could have been re-ground and used in these engines.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

Im Hi-jacking! Sorry!

Bison, PM Sent.

A.j.

 

[turbobob924]

Man, this just makes me want to leave my setup alone as you always seem to find more problems when you take things apart to "upgrade"!