You can type here any text you want

Advancement of fuel delivery?

Welcome!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

SignUp Now!
So, just how long is that line between solenoid and jets, and what size is it? Direct port? Distribution blocks? The easiest fix, if nothing else works, would be to wire in another solenoid on the distribution block(or tee'd of the feed line) that is set up to open when the primary feed solenoid closes to simply, and effectively bleed off the residual n2o. Might be possible to tie in to the purge system to minimize complexity.

Scott Wile

That is a very interesting idea. It would have to be timed so that boost pressure doesn't start to back flow into the nozzles. Check valves or a pressure switch monitoring the nitrous line. It could turn into a rather complex arrangement. Like everything else on this engine isn't complex enough.

I think I'll be looking into some sort of time delay switch that I can tie into the fuel solenoid feed wire that will have an adjustment feature, say increments of one tenth of a second. I need a .5 second turn off delay. With that I can scrap the idea of having to put extra fuel into the fuel table right at the turn off point. I have plenty of map points left to create any shape of extra injector pw, but that would take some time to create with testing and what about a situation where I might have to get off the throttle, then get back in it. What kind of activation and timing scenarios could I end up with there.

I've decided to deactivate the aux fuel rail for now and run the motor out as far as I can with the electronic injectors alone for now. That will mean a shift point of around 6500 rpm to keep injector duty cycle reasonable. That way I can work on the nitrous deactivation problem by itself, instead of having the timing of the aux system muddying the situation. After the nitrous problem is solved and the basic a/f numbers are tuned in, then I can work on bringing in the aux fuel which will raise my shift point to 7400 rpm.
 
Believe me. I am no Einstein. I am more like a persistent grasshopper.

I am gonna call you instead of NOS when I install Nitrous on the Lemans...:biggrin:

I announce you the Nitrous Tech Guy....:eek:
 
Hmmm.

The solution to the nitrous problem is a time delay relay. MSD sells a dual circuit unit. It is adjustable down to 1/100 of a second increments.

Back to the aux fuel rail. I'm looking into adding an automatic air bleed valve. This may be a way to shorten the delay time from solenoid activation to actual fuel flow.
 
Looks like I'll be developing my own air bleed valves. I'm thinking of using two of them. Two at the end opposite the fuel entry of the fuel rail. Mounted at the high spot on the top side of the fuel rail. They'll be designed to let air escape until a solid column of fuel hits them and closes them at around 35 to 45 psi. Testing will give me a better idea of what closing psi to use. I'll be looking for a minimum amount of fuel getting past the bleed valve. Fun, fun.
 
Here is an overview of the nitrous system.
 

Attachments

  • IMGP0523_resize.JPG
    IMGP0523_resize.JPG
    90.8 KB · Views: 2,438
You know....It's not going to be fast unless you have a distibutor:biggrin: ;)
I bet that MSD relay is going to be expensive!

scott wile
 
Just finished installing it tonight. 130 bucks. Not bad.

Distributor? You're kidding again, right?
 
Just finished installing it tonight. 130 bucks. Not bad.

Distributor? You're kidding again, right?

Don, I apologize. My sarcasm gets the best of.... everyone but me!:biggrin: Yes, I was kidding. On another note, I realize you're trying to reach an ultimate goal(and we all want to know what that might be!:D ), but aren't you concerned that at some point things start going beyond practical in a race enviroment? I live by the "KISS" rule and by goodness if I was your position in between rounds, at an event, when something went wrong with your vehicle, I might panic:eek: BTW, how's the relay working?

Scott Wile
 
I know you were being sarcastic.;) I was too.

You're absolutely correct about the practicality of my setup as a dependable race setup. It would not be the way I would suggest someone else go. Especially, someone just looking to have a car to race. You know. People with the race car driver mentality. No regard for how the machine works, just wants to tear things up on the track. It would be so much easier to buy off the shelf parts and put something together that would most likely give me the same results and ultimately have been much cheaper. But, my ultimate goal has never been to quickly put a car together, jump into it and just race it. That would bore me to death. The enjoyment I get out of my project is the challenge of putting together something that is unique and efficient and challenging. I love to tinker and try new things out and learn new skills. Whether the skills be craftmanship related or scientific (metallurgy, fluid dynamics, electronics, metal fabrication, mathematics, etc., etc.). Sometimes, I think so much so to a fault. But,... it's how I enjoy using my free time. It would be total boredom to most people I'm sure. It's like blower technology. Top fuel teams are never satisfied with the performance of their blowers, among other aspects of their race car too, I'm sure. Blower technology would never be where it is today if racers just sat on the couch watching football games all weekend, chugging down six packs. There are people out there that are always asking the question, 'What if we tried this? Would it squeeze a little bit more out of it?' There are some people out there that know hundreds of ways not to build a blower and a few right ways to build a great blower. They didn't get that experiece by sitting on their behind. And,... it's what they enjoy doing. Obviously, I'm not trying to build a record breaker. The setup would have taken a much different direction and I would have ended up with a worse maintenance nightmare than I have with this one. Plus, there is always someone out there with the resources to top a record. I choose to simply challenge myself. That is where I derive my satisfaction from this project. It's my shop project.

The delay box is working great. There is one aspect of it that worries me.
There is a reset circuit that I have connected to my throttle microswitch. The same one that activates the NOS system. The WOT switch. I have this reset circuit connected to the normally closed terminal. When this terminal supplies 12V to the delay unit, it resets the delay timer to start (rearms the timer). This terminal on the microswitch only supplies 12V when at any throttle position other than WOT. The only time the timer will count down is when this circuit is at 0V (WOT). If the circuit sees 12V, it stops the countdown and resets the timer to start. That brings up some situational problems.

The intended situation would be to stay at WOT for the complete run, the 16 psi pressure switch shut power to the nitrous gas solenoid, the loss of 12V on that circuit then signals the delay box to start and maintain countdown on the ground circuit of the nitrous fuel solenoid, as long as 12V is not seen on the reset circuit (at the throttle microswitch) as the countdown is occuring.

The problem. What if during or just before the countdown needs to happen, I have to come off WOT? As soon as I pull off WOT, 12V is supplied to the reset on the delay box and countdown is haulted and reset waiting for the next loss of 12V on the power side of the nitrous gas solenoid, as long as there is not 12V on the reset circuit. I don't like the idea of what might happen if I have to pull off WOT at the wrong time. I've been trying to figure out a different activation arrangement for the reset circuit that would be automatic and keep me away from the above situation. Any ideas appreciated.
 
Could you use one of the 12v output's of the ecu to control the time delay relay? That way you could isolate the reset circuit from the WOT switch and possibly(depending on your ecu), make it RPM based. If I'm reading you correctly might that work? I'm a "visual" troubleshoot kinda guy so lemme know if I'm way off base:)

Scott Wile
 
Ran the car tonight. The delay box actually worked real well. I started with a .5 second delay and ended up with a .9 second delay. I found out that the map is a little lean when the nitrous turns off, so I need to correct that and then retune the delay. Finally got some nice, smooth runs in. Going WOT on the second amber was pretty crazy. The car lost traction out of the hole and wanted to start heading for a wall. I may have the nitrous power circuit go through a relay controlled by the transbrake switch.
There was one run where I pedalled pretty heavy. That was the first run, leaving on the second amber. Red light start to boot. Immediately lost traction, started pitching sideways and I needed to play with the throttle a bit to get her back straight. The datalog didn't show any massive problem with the reset circuit as it's setup. I'll leave it the way it is for now. The car is still pig rich. Ran low on nitrous so I had to stop testing. Time to start leaning on her a little.
 
Barona has a big purse bracket going on this weekend, including test and tune on Friday. I'll be there Friday to see if I can get a decent enough tuneup to compete Saturday and Sunday. No test and tune lanes on the weekend. Only eliminations. We'll see what happens.
 
Barona has a big purse bracket going on this weekend, including test and tune on Friday. I'll be there Friday to see if I can get a decent enough tuneup to compete Saturday and Sunday. No test and tune lanes on the weekend. Only eliminations. We'll see what happens.

Good luck!
 
Some new discoveries.

Sunday the race was cancelled due to high winds, which led to fires all over California. I packed up the car and when I got back to the shop, decided to do some tuning, since the wind was not bad at all at the shop. The car was still on methanol and I needed to work on the return road tuneup (light cruising up to 2800 rpm). After working on that in front of the shop, I pulled the car into the shop and started to play with the tuneup at converter stall on the transbrake.

After studying some recent datalogs and doing some experimenting I found that this engine really likes the a/f ratio under boost that I had assumed was too rich. My readout is set for gasoline and I guess I was thinking too much of what good a/f numbers would be for gasoline. I was assuming those lambda values would also work for methanol. I was wrong. During recent track testing, I was starting to realize that as I tried to lean the a/f ratio under boost to my target of 11.3 to one, my mph started to drop off or at the least was not getting any better. I always felt that as I leaned toward 11.3 the mph should increase. A sure sign that HP was coming up. It didn't.

In the garage, as an experiment, I setup the a/f table to target 12.4 at 2440 rpm, which is converter stall at 0 boost, and ramped the target a/f ratio to 10.2 to one by 135 kPa boost. The results of the test was interesting. After going WOT, the rpm would go to 2440 rpm as usual, but then slowly climbed to 3400 rpm, which is when I got out of the throttle. Not sure how high it would have continued to go. As a check, I went back to the a/f table and set the target a/f to 12.4 at converter stall at 0 boost, ramping it to a different value at 135 kPa. I used 12.4 for this test. The result was, the engine rpm stalled at 2440 rpm and did not increase as before. I couldn't go back and do a retest because I ran out of methanol. Grrr.:mad: More testing to continue. What would going richer still bring?

After getting this result I decided to look up some old notes that I had taken on safe best power and rich best power for gasoline versus methanol.

Safe best power for methanol is 5.5 to one.
Rich best power for methanol is 4.5 to one.

5.5 methanol = .85 lambda = 12.48 gasoline.
4.5 methanol = .70 lambda = 10.21 gasoline.

I guess it's a good idea to dig up old notes and read over them every once in awhile.
 
Finally got the base fuel map finished. Settled in with a .73 to .74 lambda @ WOT. By the end of the day, I started adding the auxiliary fuel into the tuneup. Datalog looks good except for that aux fuel activation point. I'm getting that pesky lean spot before the fuel stream from the nozzles kick in. The map is increasing so quickly that the boost is pretty up there while this lean spot is still recovering. I'm working with keeping the electronic injectors on high pw through this transition, but it isn't helping much so far and I can only carry on this overlap for so long. I might end up having to use the nitrous fuel delay box to help supply extra fuel during this transition point. Maybe I should tune in the nitrous system first, without the aux fuel (limiting my rpm to 6000 rpm) and dial in the fuel delay to give me an extra rich spot right at the aux fuel transition point. Then throw the aux fuel into the tuneup. Yikes. What a mess.
 
Well! Today was very interesting. I've read that methanol has a very rich burn limit. I just didn't know how far. From the results of the datalogs over the weekend, I decided to have the aux fuel come on and not throttle back the electronic injectors. Just let the injectors run at 85% duty cycle for the whole run and have the constant flow injectors come on at 16 psi. The dang thing ran about the same as it had when I was trying to throttle the injectors back over 50% after 16 psi. This throws a monkey wrench into my fuel strategy. I have to admit, it makes a few things easier now.

The lean spike was still there. Even without trying to throttle the injectors back. This is the conclusion I've come up with for this event. The volume of air that is between the aux fuel solenoid and the orificed nozzles is pushed out of the nozzles after the fuel solenoid has been activated with enough force to affect the air/fuel mixture. Momentarily, instead of injecting fuel, the nozzles are injecting air down the ports. A form of forced induction in itself. What I'm going to try to do to combat this is to reconstruct my fuel map so that I have enough range on the VE table to step up the pw during the window when the aux fuel is activated. How much % I'm going to need is the big question. If I can get the mixture right at this point, it should feel like a mild dose of nitrous right at 16 psi. So the regular nos system will turn off at 16 psi with a fraction of a second of fuel side turn off delay and the aux will turn on at 16 psi with a fraction of a second of increased pw to add to the short time of injected air from the constant flow nozzles. At least now, I won't have to worry about how much to throttle back the electronic injectors.

I feel like I'm building Frankenstein.
 
It worked! Last night I did some test launches in front of the shop and the extra pulse width at the time of aux activation did the trick. There is still a slight and short lean spike toward the tail end of the transition, but no more lean pop and drastic engine rpm drop. RPM and map rise through the transition is smooth and rock solid. The slope of the rpm and map rise does actually increase at the transition point. This could be a sign that there is more room to richen the mixture in the cells before aux activation. But, that's the region that the nitrous is on and the nitrous system is set a tad bit on the rich side. More testing. What's new.
Looks good to go for adding nitrous for a better launch to the mix. With the nitrous system's fuel turn off delay, I may be able to work the duration of the time delay to further lower the slight lean spike that's still there in the datalog.

The fuel map ended up being sloped for 1050 hp (zero VE correction) with 312 kPa as the upper limit. Most of the cells of the VE table from 16 psi upwards to 312 kPa were topped to the max at +50%. Quite a bit of cells at the upper rpm and map corner had to be reduced so that an 85% duty cycle on the electronic injectors would not be surpassed. That's why the slight lean spike still in the datalog. Just ran out of extra duty cycle towards the end of the transition period.

The next thing to work out is going to be at what point I activate the nos during the countdown on the tree. Too early will lead to the need of the wheelie bars. :eek: :D

Oh, what fun!
 
Testing up to this point has reached 28 psi. Sure wish I had some of that old CR back.
 
Back
Top