Advancement of fuel delivery?
- Thread starter Alky V6
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Scott, the secrets out of the box. It's time for the nitrous revolution.
Don't let the 'man' keep you down.
Anything that God made available to us on this green earth is fair game in my book.
Huh?
I predict an increase in the demand for headgaskets over the next few months....Time to buy stock in Fel-Pro:tongue:
New system: The latest system is a bit more complex. Still, much cheaper than going through turbos and torque converters to try and find the combination that gives that elusive spool up quality. Another thing. Using nitrous to spool the turbo allows you to say bye bye to all that staging drama that some have to go through to get a decent 60 ft. time.
Com'on now. You and I both know that a simple 50 shot is not a big deal. When enough people show the rest what can be done, nitrous will spread like a fire storm. And I don't mean through the engine bay.
Doh!True, true, but lets not go there yet.
Teaching self control is another lesson.
By the way Scott. I'm having second thoughts about releasing that clip of your truck at the WCN this year. I'm starting to feel a little guilty about participating in the perpetuation of the lie.:frown:
Teaching self control is another lesson.
By the way Scott. I'm having second thoughts about releasing that clip of your truck at the WCN this year. I'm starting to feel a little guilty about participating in the perpetuation of the lie.:frown:
So on the old system during your burnout you just never went to WOT so the nitrous side of the system was never activated?
Interesting. I was afraid of activating it during my burnout so I just shut the system off during the burnout.
The way the GENII translator has the window switch setup is really neat. Its all done through the box. I input a map output voltage that the system comes on at. I have that set to 0, It has a max MAP voltage. I set that to the equivalent of around 16 psi. It has a minimum RPM (I played with, set at 3000 right now), max rpm (5200 just in case), and finally, minimum and maximum TPS voltages. My max tps is just set to max, and my minimum is around what I gauge as 90% throttle opening. I can move these parameters around with a few button pushes.
Since you speak so highly of even just a 50 shot I have to wonder if my system is operating properly. Right now I have a big x factor and that is my bottle pressure. I have no gauge or bottle warmer for the nitrous. Judging by my buddies bottles, cold Im well under 950 psi so maybe that is reducing the hit. With the 125 jets though I oughta be at least 75 hp even with a cold bottle. My GenII has wideband tracking and auto adjusts the fueling side even though the fuel jet may be too big at that bottle psi.
anyway
did I miss something? Did you delete what the new setup is about
Not ready to let that cat out of the bag? Nitrous pre turbo or something? Now I am really curious.
Interesting. I was afraid of activating it during my burnout so I just shut the system off during the burnout.
The way the GENII translator has the window switch setup is really neat. Its all done through the box. I input a map output voltage that the system comes on at. I have that set to 0, It has a max MAP voltage. I set that to the equivalent of around 16 psi. It has a minimum RPM (I played with, set at 3000 right now), max rpm (5200 just in case), and finally, minimum and maximum TPS voltages. My max tps is just set to max, and my minimum is around what I gauge as 90% throttle opening. I can move these parameters around with a few button pushes.
Since you speak so highly of even just a 50 shot I have to wonder if my system is operating properly. Right now I have a big x factor and that is my bottle pressure. I have no gauge or bottle warmer for the nitrous. Judging by my buddies bottles, cold Im well under 950 psi so maybe that is reducing the hit. With the 125 jets though I oughta be at least 75 hp even with a cold bottle. My GenII has wideband tracking and auto adjusts the fueling side even though the fuel jet may be too big at that bottle psi.
anyway
did I miss something? Did you delete what the new setup is about
Not ready to let that cat out of the bag? Nitrous pre turbo or something? Now I am really curious.
Pablo, you're correct about the nitrous side. I purposely never went WOT during a burnout. The new system description is coming. I wouldn't lead you on about that.
Scott. Just kidding. Still working on the editing software to figure something out. And it's not to mess with the numbers on the timing board. Don't worry.
Scott. Just kidding. Still working on the editing software to figure something out. And it's not to mess with the numbers on the timing board. Don't worry.
Latest NOS system
If you've read this thread up to this point, you should have a very good idea of how I've setup my latest system. I'll try to summarize for those coming in late. I will also leave the aux fuel system out of this to make things simple for those only interested in the nitrous system.
The basics:
Port injected. 6 custom made wet nozzles. This assures equal distribution to each cylinder.
One custom radial distribution block feeding all six nozzles. Fuel and nitrous.
The fuel used with the system is methanol.
The system is jetted to deliver 190 HP. Judged by the nitrous oxide (oxidizer) jet size. Since I'm using alcohol instead of gasoline, I'm not quite sure if the system is delivering a true 190 HP. Some theorize that the output can be 1/2 of the rated capacity when using alcohol. My latest sim work is leading me to believe that I just may be seeing all of the 190 HP rating.
The activation window is controlled by a GPO table within the ECM. Basically, the system is hot, as far as the ECM is concerned, at 2440 rpm (around torque converter stall speed at zero boost) and above, and 98 kPa (zero vacuum, zero boost) and above.
The ECM GPO energizes a relay that powers up the nitrous system.
The electrical power from the relay runs through a master quick kill switch to the nitrous system that is controlled by the driver. This allows the driver to perform a burnout without worrying about the nitrous system activating. Just make sure the switch is off for the burnout and then turned on before staging.
The bottle is mounted beside the driver so that I have control over the valve.
There's a pressure gauge mounted just after the valve to monitor bottle pressure.
A heat blanket is used to bring bottle pressure up on cold days.
The target pressure is 900 psi. That is a good average pressure for most days. The heat blanket will bring a low bottle to 900 fairly easily. To get more than 900 will mean much more time and heat from the blanket. I should add that your bottle pressure is very important to monitor, if you are to expect consistent results.
The electrical power circuit after the master switch splits off to the nitrous oxidizer and fuel solenoids after going through a normally open WOT switch. This was done to assure that nitrous activation only occurred at WOT.
The nitrous oxidizer solenoid ground circuit goes to a precision normally closed 16 psi pressure switch.
The nitrous fuel solenoid ground circuit goes to a delay box that allows the fuel solenoid to stay on for a programmed amount of time, down to the 1/100 of a second, after the nitrous oxidizer solenoid has shut down. This assures that there is no lean spot after the deactivation of the nitrous system. Depending on the size of your system (shot size) and how much volume is in your nitrous system plumbing, it may not be necessary to use a delay box. Still. Cheap insurance.
A hot lead on the nitrous system controls a relay that activates a nitrous retard function in the ECM. The amount of max retard is user programmable and can be adjusted to a lower value via a knob mounted by the driver.
Sytem operating choices to come next. That is what you'll want to read, Pablo.
And then, we'll discuss Scott's system. That will be one discussion to tune into. It is a very simple and effective system. I'm surprised more people haven't jumped on such a system.
If you've read this thread up to this point, you should have a very good idea of how I've setup my latest system. I'll try to summarize for those coming in late. I will also leave the aux fuel system out of this to make things simple for those only interested in the nitrous system.
The basics:
Port injected. 6 custom made wet nozzles. This assures equal distribution to each cylinder.
One custom radial distribution block feeding all six nozzles. Fuel and nitrous.
The fuel used with the system is methanol.
The system is jetted to deliver 190 HP. Judged by the nitrous oxide (oxidizer) jet size. Since I'm using alcohol instead of gasoline, I'm not quite sure if the system is delivering a true 190 HP. Some theorize that the output can be 1/2 of the rated capacity when using alcohol. My latest sim work is leading me to believe that I just may be seeing all of the 190 HP rating.
The activation window is controlled by a GPO table within the ECM. Basically, the system is hot, as far as the ECM is concerned, at 2440 rpm (around torque converter stall speed at zero boost) and above, and 98 kPa (zero vacuum, zero boost) and above.
The ECM GPO energizes a relay that powers up the nitrous system.
The electrical power from the relay runs through a master quick kill switch to the nitrous system that is controlled by the driver. This allows the driver to perform a burnout without worrying about the nitrous system activating. Just make sure the switch is off for the burnout and then turned on before staging.
The bottle is mounted beside the driver so that I have control over the valve.
There's a pressure gauge mounted just after the valve to monitor bottle pressure.
A heat blanket is used to bring bottle pressure up on cold days.
The target pressure is 900 psi. That is a good average pressure for most days. The heat blanket will bring a low bottle to 900 fairly easily. To get more than 900 will mean much more time and heat from the blanket. I should add that your bottle pressure is very important to monitor, if you are to expect consistent results.
The electrical power circuit after the master switch splits off to the nitrous oxidizer and fuel solenoids after going through a normally open WOT switch. This was done to assure that nitrous activation only occurred at WOT.
The nitrous oxidizer solenoid ground circuit goes to a precision normally closed 16 psi pressure switch.
The nitrous fuel solenoid ground circuit goes to a delay box that allows the fuel solenoid to stay on for a programmed amount of time, down to the 1/100 of a second, after the nitrous oxidizer solenoid has shut down. This assures that there is no lean spot after the deactivation of the nitrous system. Depending on the size of your system (shot size) and how much volume is in your nitrous system plumbing, it may not be necessary to use a delay box. Still. Cheap insurance.
A hot lead on the nitrous system controls a relay that activates a nitrous retard function in the ECM. The amount of max retard is user programmable and can be adjusted to a lower value via a knob mounted by the driver.
Sytem operating choices to come next. That is what you'll want to read, Pablo.
And then, we'll discuss Scott's system. That will be one discussion to tune into. It is a very simple and effective system. I'm surprised more people haven't jumped on such a system.
That is what you would think. But when you take into consideration the extremely cool mixture of alcohol and nitrous together, it makes you wonder if the mixture is too cool for the most efficient burn.
The 1/2 rated theory is referenced from a book I read. The name of the book is:
Nitrous Oxide Injection by David Vizard. Published by S-A Design.
I might add that the book also made it clear that not a lot of information about the use of nitrous and alcohol was available.
Nitrous system operation
With the system setup the way it is now, I have a few options on how or I should say when to activate the system to give the best launch. I have not explored them all, but I'll list them for you.
Since the nitrous system is basically controlled by the WOT switch, it's a matter of choosing when, during the countdown of the tree (three amber tree), to activate the nitrous.
The slowest and safest launch is to go WOT on the last amber or basically at the same time the transbrake is released. You could wire in a relay to control this activation with the transbrake button to get good consistency during launch. If you have a lot of volume in your nitrous system, you'll end up with a soft hit launch until the liquid nitrous begins to flow in ernest from the nozzle.
You can increase the intensity of the launch by going WOT at anytime before the release of the transbrake. The last few runs at the WCN this year, I went WOT on the second amber. It was a very controllable launch. I tested going WOT on the first amber only once. I would not do it again without attaching the wheelie bars to the car. It was amazing. If you've ever seen Scott's truck leave the line, it's kind of like that. Something I'll eventually work myself up to, I'm sure.
Another option involves using another delay box. Go WOT on the first amber and have a delay of your choice programmed into the delay box. Sounds neat, don't it?
Then there's the option of using a controller that would be capable to turn on the nitrous for spooling, turn off during peak cylinder pressures and then turn back on during the last part of the run, past peak torque rpm.
With the system setup the way it is now, I have a few options on how or I should say when to activate the system to give the best launch. I have not explored them all, but I'll list them for you.
Since the nitrous system is basically controlled by the WOT switch, it's a matter of choosing when, during the countdown of the tree (three amber tree), to activate the nitrous.
The slowest and safest launch is to go WOT on the last amber or basically at the same time the transbrake is released. You could wire in a relay to control this activation with the transbrake button to get good consistency during launch. If you have a lot of volume in your nitrous system, you'll end up with a soft hit launch until the liquid nitrous begins to flow in ernest from the nozzle.
You can increase the intensity of the launch by going WOT at anytime before the release of the transbrake. The last few runs at the WCN this year, I went WOT on the second amber. It was a very controllable launch. I tested going WOT on the first amber only once. I would not do it again without attaching the wheelie bars to the car. It was amazing. If you've ever seen Scott's truck leave the line, it's kind of like that. Something I'll eventually work myself up to, I'm sure.
Another option involves using another delay box. Go WOT on the first amber and have a delay of your choice programmed into the delay box. Sounds neat, don't it?
Then there's the option of using a controller that would be capable to turn on the nitrous for spooling, turn off during peak cylinder pressures and then turn back on during the last part of the run, past peak torque rpm.
Another variable that can be used to control the intensity of the nitrous hit, particularly if your using a large hit, is to play with the amount of nitrous retard. With retard more than optimum, the hit softens.
Ain't this cool? :biggrin:
The amazing thing is, I'm not the least bit in a hurry to study my datalogs of the last event. Normally, I would be all over them seeing what my spool up was like, what my converter stall looked like, what my rpm drops looked like at shifts, etc. Nitrous is amazing.
I've mentioned this a few times and I'll mention it again.
Nitrous with turbocharging is the perfect marriage.
Nitrous provides immediate torque on the bottom end that trails off with rpm, while the turbocharger, when sized correctly, can be used to take over on the top end with the nitrous helping to get the big tank spooling on the low end. Imagine something that increases low end HP while it helps to spool your large turbo and allows you to avoid the typical distracting launch procedure that is so common these days. Now you can concentrate on cutting a good light.
Ain't this cool? :biggrin:
The amazing thing is, I'm not the least bit in a hurry to study my datalogs of the last event. Normally, I would be all over them seeing what my spool up was like, what my converter stall looked like, what my rpm drops looked like at shifts, etc. Nitrous is amazing.
I've mentioned this a few times and I'll mention it again.
Nitrous with turbocharging is the perfect marriage.
Nitrous provides immediate torque on the bottom end that trails off with rpm, while the turbocharger, when sized correctly, can be used to take over on the top end with the nitrous helping to get the big tank spooling on the low end.
Imagine something that increases low end HP while it helps to spool your large turbo and allows you to avoid the typical distracting launch procedure that is so common these days. Now you can concentrate on cutting a good light.The next discussion will be on a much more simple system. A single nozzle system. This would be the kind of system that would be very easy to hide. There are plenty of ways to disguise a line and nozzle and with the amount of plumbing before and after the turbo, there are plenty of choices for discreet placement. I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't a few secret systems already being used in some 'class' racing. Nitrous has been known throughout racing history as the favorite tool of choice, located in the cheat drawer of your favorite crew chief's tool box. In fact, if I were to involve myself in class racing, with what I know now, I would be very tempted to use my fabricating skills to come up with a stealth nitrous system. Why not? What are they going to do? Take away my name? Heck. Just a one second shot could make the difference of whether a record is made or not.
The first question about nozzle placement is where. Before the turbo. After the turbo. Before the intercooler. After the intercooler. Before the throttle body.
The next question should be wet or dry. Also, where you place the nozzle would have a lot to do with whether you go with a wet system or dry system.
Next question. How should the nozzle face? Should it spray upstream or downstream. Will where you decide to place the nozzle have any bearing on the direction it sprays?
To search for the answer to some or all of these questions try visiting the Wizards of Nos site/forum. There is some very interesting information there.
The first question about nozzle placement is where. Before the turbo. After the turbo. Before the intercooler. After the intercooler. Before the throttle body.
The next question should be wet or dry. Also, where you place the nozzle would have a lot to do with whether you go with a wet system or dry system.
Next question. How should the nozzle face? Should it spray upstream or downstream. Will where you decide to place the nozzle have any bearing on the direction it sprays?
To search for the answer to some or all of these questions try visiting the Wizards of Nos site/forum. There is some very interesting information there.
Now the question that I'm dying to know the answer to.
Let's take a compressor that is operating at a pressure ratio of 2 to one. The air entering the turbo has the normal content of oxygen that is in the air all around us. The oxygen content is twice as much per cylinder volume after the compressor. Keeping the math simple and not taking into consideration the temperature rise. Is this correct? If so, then if we start with an air mix that has a higher percentage of oxygen in it and run it through the compressor, have we still doubled the oxygen content per cylinder volume? Keeping heat out of the equation for now. I am in desperate need of some math wizards on this one.
Let's take a compressor that is operating at a pressure ratio of 2 to one. The air entering the turbo has the normal content of oxygen that is in the air all around us. The oxygen content is twice as much per cylinder volume after the compressor. Keeping the math simple and not taking into consideration the temperature rise. Is this correct? If so, then if we start with an air mix that has a higher percentage of oxygen in it and run it through the compressor, have we still doubled the oxygen content per cylinder volume? Keeping heat out of the equation for now. I am in desperate need of some math wizards on this one.
I may be in over my head on this one but I think if you are starting off with a infinite amount of that air with more oxygen in it then you would certainly be doubling its density after the compressor regardless.
But, if I am to guess where you are going with this, if you inject nitrous pre turbo then the amount of oxygen vs volume is going to increase. As engine rpm increases, so does volume of "air" processed but since the volume of nitrous is a constant your're going to have an ever changing oxygen content vs volume of "air" pre turbo and therefore post turbo. The nitrous volume would have to have some sort of ramp to accurately predict the amount of oxygen actually entering the engine to keep it constant.
Very good point.
Another point. With the cooling affect of the nitrous, you have also increased the density of the normal air entering the turbo, further increasing the oxygen content per volume. This is starting to take temperature into consideration.
Another point. If you start out with a lower temperature pre-turbo, you'll end up with a lower compressed temperature after turbo and the intercooler capacity can be lessened if mounting space is a problem.
I would imagine it would be best to inject far enough before the turbo to give it time to change state before coming to the compressor wheel. I could be wrong.
Would injecting just after the compressor cause a pressure drop that could somehow help compressor efficiency?
What about injecting directly into the scroll. Directing the spray to help spool the turbo. Much like blowing on a pin wheel.
Would injecting just after the compressor cause a pressure drop that could somehow help compressor efficiency?
What about injecting directly into the scroll. Directing the spray to help spool the turbo. Much like blowing on a pin wheel.
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