Affirmative Action

I 100% agree with you.

That is just my point looked at from a different point of view. I feel either way it is wrong. And the guys I know would rather earn it than be somehow thought of as preferred. They are all great guys and I can totally see their end. I don't want this to turn into a race debate , but I just feel equal is equal, merit is merit.So do they. Period.

Bruce
WE4
 
This is an issue that often ends in an argument sooner or later. Yes I am Black & have yet to benefit from AA but what has happened to me with regularity is what alot of other young african american males in my age group experience & that being job discrimination...I don't care what anybody says it still exists' albeit not in the form it held many years ago but nonetheless it's around...You put me in the same room with a "White" man and our qualifications match equally, who do you really think is going get that job? I have been turned down countless times and for what? I'm sure you know the answer!

True AA was created to assist Black folks and am glad but having said that the playing field is still not even with us & the majority. Let your skin tone become that of mine and see what it is like to be "colored" and am sure most you would be itching to get out....I have to work twice as hard to obtain what comes quite easily for the average White guy, nothing was handed to me...It kills me that some of you speak so critical of a program that most of you have benefited from in one respect or another just ask Pres Bush..If I recall wasn't he admited to Harvard because of he's father's status..I didn't hear anyone talk about that...You don't have to agree with my opinion, simply respect it.

Todd
 
Of course this will eventually end in an arguement, we are talking about discrimination here. It doesn't matter if it is one color or another that is being discriminated against, it is still legal state sponsored discrimination no matter how you look at it. Now saying that AA has never helped you is kind of hard to comprehend as it is never noticed when it helps but is obvious when it hurts. The only way I can see someone saying it never helped them is if they are a "minority" and have a minimum wage job, otherwise they have made some advances in life and their career and at some time AA did what it was intended to do. Are you saying that it has never given you a free ride??? That would be a better statement on your part. Funny that when AA works correctly it isn't even noticed. It was designed to give everyone a fair shot based on their qualifications and not their race or sex, unfortunately at times it does the exact opposite.
 
1badTTA,

I'm not looking for a free ride....No I do not have a minimum wage job, my salary is alright, not nearly enough, nothing comes free and I'm not asking for anything free....All that I want is to be treatly fairly and with equality..You say based on their qualifications...I say to that "Yeah right" If that was the case I'd be getting paid right now, I couldn't count on my two hands & two feet how many jobs I may have been denied based upon the color of my skin & not the depth of my knowledge & experience...

I work very hard for what I have, let's not get it twisted now...Nothing was given to me on a silver plater..I don't know too many ppl that were denied employment because they were white; however, when the complexion of your skin is my color, you tend to be looked upon differently, whether you agree or not that's the simple truth. Well, you'd never know what it's like to be on the other side so I guess that point is mute.

Todd
 
All I am saying is that there is a difference between using and abusing the system. If you have a descent job and your not working at McDonalds with a Bachelors degree, then the system must be working to some extent. It isn't only AA that is a factor, I have had problems because of the GOBN as well. Just because I am white doesn't mean squat when a bunch of guys are all trying to get their buddies jobs and I am not "one of the buddies". Trust me it is frustrating no matter what the percieved reason is, but what can any of us do? Get a job in HR so we can do the hiring and hire the "other" people? Then we would be just as bad. There really is no good answer for any of it, those that are most qualified should be the one to get it, but even that is open to interpretation. Quotas obviously aren't the answer.
 
We have different viewpoints and it doesn't bother me the least bit. You see it one way and I see it another...Take care guy and be safe over the Holiday!

Todd
 
just to put things in to perspective the director of my department told me to my face that if he interviewed me he would have not hired me because he never worked with a black person and was intimidated by black people.although i appreciated his cander and honesty this showed me there is still a problem.he also said that he was happy that i was hired because of my quality of work.lucky he was on vacation when i was interviewed or i would have missed out on a great opportunity.this is what happens even today.i had the qualifications,but if he took a look at me i would have been excluded from the hiring process all together.i also think he learned alot in the years of working with me,and has since hired another black person.thats my story.
 
I applied for this job, once, and three other people also applied. I didn't get the job. :( I'm pretty sure it was because I was Italian-American. I know it couldn't be because of some other reason.......like I didn't luck out and get the job, or somebody else applied first, or maybe the person who got hired had an "in". They should've picked me. I even work hard. I did finally get a job. They don't pay me enough, though. Do you think it's because I'm of Italian descent? I do. :rolleyes:
 
It's sad that people reject qualified applicants based on a bias but this can NEVER be legislated out of bigots.

If I were a business owner. I would not hesitate hiring ANYONE of color if it would benefit my business and make $. Why hire a white guy if he's inferior to anyone else be it a female, mexican, oriental, 4 eyed green monster etc if it would benefit my business and make it more profitable. Talk about senseless.

There will always be bigotry on every side of every race. I've been called "blue eyed devil" (my eyes are hazel), "pink bitch", "cracker" and on and on. I don't let it affect me....no way.

I think everyone here agrees racism exists and is UGLY but the gist of this thread is the merits of Affirmative Action. Is it really OK to descriminate black vs. white and/or white vs. black. The unequivocal answer is NO. Not in any case against anyone for any reason, let alone government sponsored discrimination.

If someone thinks it's ok for the government to discriminate against anyone or race let them speak now and explain.

On a side note, I tested for promotion 9 times before succeeding. If I were black could I blame it on something other than doing poorly on my testing...sure. I saw guys with much less experience, less competence and fewer abilities get promoted (including blacks) but that's the way it is. Perhaps they did better in their interview, I don't know since I wasn't there. Point is I never gave up and continued to improve until it happened. I blamed no one but myeslf.
 
Well Mike, that director is an A$$ and should NOT be in his position. I've met you and your a great guy! AA was invented for morons like your boss..
GRRRRR

Originally posted by killerb
just to put things in to perspective the director of my department told me to my face that if he interviewed me he would have not hired me because he never worked with a black person and was intimidated by black people.although i appreciated his cander and honesty this showed me there is still a problem.he also said that he was happy that i was hired because of my quality of work.lucky he was on vacation when i was interviewed or i would have missed out on a great opportunity.this is what happens even today.i had the qualifications,but if he took a look at me i would have been excluded from the hiring process all together.i also think he learned alot in the years of working with me,and has since hired another black person.thats my story.
 
Well here is my take. There have been some great wrongs that have been perpetrated due to the evils of racism; this does not justify government-sponsored racism. I had an old boss who, applying for a promotion, was directly told that, “We are not looking for any more white people for this position.” At that point he told them to go shove it and quit. Now if he was black and told that they were not looking for any more blacks I can only imagine the lawsuit that would have ensued. However since he was white the government required his employer to have a quota of minorities filling certain positions.

So Killerb is this fair? I do not wish to insinuate that the challenges that you have faced are untrue. I know that there are still too many people out their with closed minds, of all races. I believe that all people should be judged on their merits, not skin tone. Further I believe that instilling a quota does a great harm to us all. Affirmative Action belittles us all. It suggests that minorities are inferior and that all whites are racists. It should be abolished. I do not wish to offend; I just wish to share my view.

-Black Sabbath
 
Martin Luther King

I have much admiration for the late Dr. Martin Luther King. My favorite partial quote from many of his speeches include "judge me by the content of my characther, not the color of my skin".

I couldn't agree more.... Unfortunately Affirmitave Action flies in the face of that statement.
 
My take

White only drinking fountains ,diners and on and on.... are why we have such a thing as AA, is it fair ? Prolly not but I am sure we have all heard it before ,life is not fair . But the problem was created by GROSS unfairness ,it serves a purpose to give minoritys and women a chance to get the expreince in the workforce that they did not have and were UNABLE to get , If for example a woman or black was unable to get job because of racial or sex predijuce how would one ever expect to get a job based on qualifications or experiance?We all have preconcived notions about people ,you are kidding yourself if you say you dont . So lets be real, there are plenty of oppertunities for everyone thats wants to work hard and sadly even for people that dont . I see it as mostly huray for my side kind of thing when conversations like this come up.

Mark
 
Re: My take

Originally posted by qwknuf6
White only drinking fountains ,diners and on and on.... are why we have such a thing as AA, is it fair ?

No. Two wrongs don't make a right. I've never drank from a "whites only" drinking fountain in my 38 years of life.

Are you saying this is why we need AA in the year 2004?

AA HURTS the cause of racial equality. It says discrimination based purely on race is acceptable. It says people a inferior based on their racial heritage (and not even skin color)an need government assistance.

In todays society, being obesely Fat is a much greater detrement to getting a job than being a black.

Are AA proponents suggesting their should be AA for obesely Fat white guys?
 
Re: Re: My take

Originally posted by UNGN
No. Two wrongs don't make a right. I've never drank from a "whites only" drinking fountain in my 38 years of life."QUOTE

Correct ,I never said or implied AA was correct ,but even if I did not create the problem I can see that it needed to be corrected .AA was a way to correct it ,right or wrong .

I myself never drank from A "white only" water fountain either . But can clearly see it was wrong ,I know of peolpe who dont .


QUOTE"Are you saying this is why we need AA in the year 2004?"QUOTE

No , again I did not say or imply that.

QUOTE"AA HURTS the cause of racial equality. It says discrimination based purely on race is acceptable. It says people a inferior based on their racial heritage (and not even skin color)an need government assistance."QUOTE

It is sad when goverment has to step in because buisness and people cannot use common sense . It was easy to say Blacks couldnt to IT ,if they never got a chance ,why couldnt Blacks play baseball with whites ??????That makes no sense AT ALL!!!!And that was just the smallest, most superficial part of a much much deeper problem .

QUOTE"In todays society, being obesely Fat is a much greater detrement to getting a job than being a black."QUOTE

That was not the case 40 or even 25 years ago .


Maybe in another 40 years there will be no discimination and AA will be a distant memory .

Mark
 
Re: Re: My take

Originally posted by UNGN
No. Two wrongs don't make a right. I've never drank from a "whites only" drinking fountain in my 38 years of life.

Are you saying this is why we need AA in the year 2004?

AA HURTS the cause of racial equality. It says discrimination based purely on race is acceptable. It says people a inferior based on their racial heritage (and not even skin color)an need government assistance.

In todays society, being obesely Fat is a much greater detrement to getting a job than being a black.

Are AA proponents suggesting their should be AA for obesely Fat white guys?

I agree with this. My own opinion, nobody elses.



I also really am impressed and proud of you guys being able to carry on a "very touchy subject" with professionalism and courtiousness. We all need to see both sides of this. We all have an opinion also.

I happen to agree that 20-30 years ago , AA might have assisted, however , today is today and merit is what should be rewarded.

We hired a new shop guy in August I guess it was. Mark came to me after reviewing 20 or so applications. He relayed to me the most qualified was a gentlemen named Russell. He said that the minute he talked to this guy he KNEW he was one for our team.
Now the kinda ironic part. All 19 other applicants were white and one woman who was also white. Russell is black. Now, I have NO quota to meet but we both agreed that he be the one hired.
This guy has kicked ass and is AWESOME! I have NEVER heard complaint one and all his work is perfect! He even replied to me at our Christmas dinner how happy he was to be one of the team and how we all respected him as equal as, I, the owner.
THAT my friends is how the system "should" work.
Too bad it doesn't. :(

BTW:.... all employees are to work one year before vacation or time off is paid. I have two new employees less than a year this year on board , Russell and Damian, and BOTH recieved the week paid we were off over Christmas/newyears.
They take care of us and we take care of them.
That's how merit should rewarded.

Bruce
WE4
 
hey frank, thanks for the kind words. wish the best for you and your family in the new year.
 
Re: My take

Originally posted by qwknuf6
But the problem was created by GROSS unfairness ,it serves a purpose to give minoritys and women a chance to get the expreince in the workforce that they did not have and were UNABLE to get , If for example a woman or black was unable to get job because of racial or sex predijuce how would one ever expect to get a job based on qualifications or experiance?We all have preconcived notions about people ,you are kidding yourself if you say you dont . So lets be real, there are plenty of oppertunities for everyone thats wants to work hard and sadly even for people that dont . I see it as mostly huray for my side kind of thing when conversations like this come up.

Mark
Mark,

You bring up indisputable facts about the past but does discriminating against an innocent 40 years later justify the wrongs of yesteryear? If so, you're saying 2 wrongs make a right.
 
Again ,I am not stating any of this is correct ,in a perfect world we would have never been put into a postion such as this , I was just pointing out the reason ,the way I see it for something like AA.

I hear all the comments but never hear anyone coming up with a solution to the problem that was CREATED BY OUR SOCIETY,
That being unfair discrimination based on race .(How would you have solved the problem??)

Somewhere along the line the discriminated had to get boost .You know ,you cant have a job because you dont have experiance , you dont have experience becasue you were not allowed to have the job . The cycle had to break somewqhere along the line .

There are enough oppertunities for everyone .
Look at were we are , on a Hobby BB ,enjoying our hobby , I dont think anyone here is suffering from anything .

Thanks Mark
 
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