Alky and temps at TB.

[hrhoward]

I have a question about the temperature entering the TB with alky. It does in fact cool the incoming air, correct? I ask this because on one of the Toyota forums I posted the following:
Quote:
Originally Posted by hrhoward
has anyone with a S/C tried running with alcohol injection?

This is the response I got:

a lot of people have, myself included, but that only cools EGTs, not intake air. So the TB will still run as hot.

I have a '03 Tacoma, no super-charger, but have the same problem these guys, running with a s/c, have. Some believe the charged/hotter air is hurting a part in the throttle-by-wire controls on the TB. Here is a link to the whole thread, over 200 posts. The above are the last for the moment.
Accelerator Pedal Position Sensor & Throttle Control Motor Don't Turn Together? - Page 7 - TTORA Forum

 

[Sweet6]

the air coming in is much cooler. Figure around 60-70 degress going into the intake. I know that number will vary. But figure around 60-70 on a 90 degree day. At least that is what I found. Numbers can vary depending on set up.

 

[lisa33]

oure TB blades were stucket at WOT after a 1/8 race when we added a little extra meth/water, havent done it beafore we raised the pump pressure so im pretty sure that it was ice that hold the blades at wot..
So yes, the incoming air gets cooler.

 

[hrhoward]

Help me explain this to them, Please

Will someone give me some sites containing data showing that Alky does cool down intake temps.

If you want, start reading on page 7, post #206. Thanks.
Accelerator Pedal Position Sensor & Throttle Control Motor Don't Turn Together? - Page 7 - TTORA Forum

 

[scot w.]

Will someone give me some sites containing data showing that Alky does cool down intake temps.

If you want, start reading on page 7, post #206. Thanks.
Accelerator Pedal Position Sensor & Throttle Control Motor Don't Turn Together? - Page 7 - TTORA Forum

Why would you need data? Common sense will tell ya that if your alky nozzle/nozzle's are mounted in your inlet pipe going to your TB that it WILL BE COOLER! It's just that simple! stick your finger in methanol and don't move it in the air (not that cold), then do it again and wave it around (ALOT COLDER!).

 

[hrhoward]

Why would you need data? Common sense will tell ya that if your alky nozzle/nozzle's are mounted in your inlet pipe going to your TB that it WILL BE COOLER! It's just that simple! stick your finger in methanol and don't move it in the air (not that cold), then do it again and wave it around (ALOT COLDER!).

I know that, but I got this responce on the Toyota site:

That's ok. Choose the forum, bring facts, and or scientific information, or test data. Look up water injection. It is not an intercooler. With an intercooler you will see the difference in air inlet temps(and possibly TB operating temp), but unless you are spraying the TB with water/alcohol directly and on a continual basis, you will not see any difference in TB operating temp. See link:

Throttle By Wire (TBW) problem - TTORA Forum

I've personally done a number of temp tests on the TB in different operating conditions. If you have other opinions or suggestions by all means feel free to pursue them and report your finding. In my opinion I would rather install an auxiliary cooler(mini radiator) for just the TB and test that. Not only would it be more cost affective, but you would really see a temp difference. Just my
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[scot w.]

Have they ever tried alky in the up-pipe? We have! and know the results. We don't need sientific results....

Scot w.

 

[2QUIK6]

Look up water injection. It is not an intercooler. With an intercooler you will see the difference in air inlet temps(and possibly TB operating temp), but unless you are spraying the TB with water/alcohol directly and on a continual basis, you will not see any difference in TB operating temp.

He says "water injection"...of course it doesn't cool unless you're spraying water out of an ice cooler . Methanol has a tremendous cooling effect when it evaporates..much like carb cleaner. Some hot air non-IC'd cars are running more boost than only Intercooled cars with the same/similar mods...so thats proof enough that it is in fact an "intercooler". And it only needs to be sprayed when you are at a certain level of boost..not continually...that wouldn't work anyway.

 

[Dreamcar86]

I know that, but I got this responce on the Toyota site:

That's ok. Choose the forum, bring facts, and or scientific information, or test data. Look up water injection. It is not an intercooler. With an intercooler you will see the difference in air inlet temps(and possibly TB operating temp), but unless you are spraying the TB with water/alcohol directly and on a continual basis, you will not see any difference in TB operating temp. See link:

Throttle By Wire (TBW) problem - TTORA Forum

I've personally done a number of temp tests on the TB in different operating conditions. If you have other opinions or suggestions by all means feel free to pursue them and report your finding. In my opinion I would rather install an auxiliary cooler(mini radiator) for just the TB and test that. Not only would it be more cost affective, but you would really see a temp difference. Just my
__________________

Ask the hotair boys if it is cooling down the temps and acting as an intercooler. Even if you used water by itself you are cooling down the incoming air temps as well as the cylinder head temps. Anyone saying it is only cooling down EGT temps simply does not know what they are talking about.
They are probably not even aware that the supercharger is heating the incoming air. I am not trying to be a smart ass but this is common sense. Plus are you sure you want to share all of our secrets with these guys anyway?

 

[hrhoward]

Ask the hotair boys if it is cooling down the temps and acting as an intercooler. Even if you used water by itself you are cooling down the incoming air temps as well as the cylinder head temps. Anyone saying it is only cooling down EGT temps simply does not know what they are talking about.
They are probably not even aware that the supercharger is heating the incoming air. I am not trying to be a smart ass but this is common sense. Plus are you sure you want to share all of our secrets with these guys anyway?

I agree, this is a topic I got into regarding my Toyota Tacoma. The super chargers on these are mounted on top of the engine so there is no up pipe, and the TB bolts back onto the s/c. I figured the charged air temp would still be cooler with the alky. The believe right now is that there is a component in the TB that is failing because of the heat transmitted to the TB from the s/c. Now I do not have one on my truck, but I thought I might help a bit. Not to worried about a Tacoma challenging the Buick.

 

[bison]

Theres no doubt it cools but how much will vary by the amount of airflow, alky injected and the temperature of the air before the alky hits it as well as the temp of the alky as it enters the air stream. Remember for it to be 100% effective as a cooler it has to completely vaporize. When it boils (vaporizes) it pulls a tremendous amount of heat out of the air. This vaporization occurs form the time it is sprayed till the time the piston compresses the entire mixture while reaching TDC. Therefore there is no effective way to measure the actual temperature drop since it occurs beyond the TB and plenum areas. You can easily see the positive effects though. Much higher bmep's can be reached without detonation from the increased boost pressure and extra timing. All this equals a lot more power potential.

 

[Warp6]

Here's a screen shot of a FAST datalog Sunday afternoon with temps around 93 degrees outside. Notice the yellow line on the screen, it has a nice dip going from left to right. That's the intake air temp. The sensor is mounted at the back of the intake plenum. Methanol injection dropped the temps from 132 to 78 at the top of third gear and on into fourth at 20lbs of boost through the run. This is Razor's dual nozzle setup (and yes the car is running pig-rich. It wants more boost:biggrin: )

 

[Dreamcar86]

Here's a screen shot of a FAST datalog Sunday afternoon with temps around 93 degrees outside. Notice the yellow line on the screen, it has a nice dip going from left to right. That's the intake air temp. The sensor is mounted at the back of the intake plenum. Methanol injection dropped the temps from 132 to 78 at the top of third gear and on into fourth at 20lbs of boost through the run. This is Razor's dual nozzle setup (and yes the car is running pig-rich. It wants more boost:biggrin: )

Nice illustration! The proof is in the pudding.

 

[Dreamcar86]

I agree, this is a topic I got into regarding my Toyota Tacoma. The super chargers on these are mounted on top of the engine so there is no up pipe, and the TB bolts back onto the s/c. I figured the charged air temp would still be cooler with the alky. The believe right now is that there is a component in the TB that is failing because of the heat transmitted to the TB from the s/c. Now I do not have one on my truck, but I thought I might help a bit. Not to worried about a Tacoma challenging the Buick.

If memory serves I think they make an intercooler plate that goes between the supercharger and the intake manifold. Anyway you would see a gain using the ALKY on any supercharged vehicle.
There is a guy with a Dodge duster at the local track running the old school blower and methanol. He is getting almost 5 extra pounds of boost running the methanol.

 

[hrhoward]

Thanks to everyone for the info and data. If they still don't believe, I can at least say I tried.

 

[Boost231]

if they dont believe there idiots period.

 

[Jerryl]

Ask the hotair boys if it is cooling down the temps and acting as an intercooler. Even if you used water by itself you are cooling down the incoming air temps as well as the cylinder head temps. Anyone saying it is only cooling down EGT temps simply does not know what they are talking about.
They are probably not even aware that the supercharger is heating the incoming air. I am not trying to be a smart ass but this is common sense. Plus are you sure you want to share all of our secrets with these guys anyway?

Very true, and some funny stuff!

I agree, this is a topic I got into regarding my Toyota Tacoma. The super chargers on these are mounted on top of the engine so there is no up pipe, and the TB bolts back onto the s/c. I figured the charged air temp would still be cooler with the alky. The believe right now is that there is a component in the TB that is failing because of the heat transmitted to the TB from the s/c. Now I do not have one on my truck, but I thought I might help a bit. Not to worried about a Tacoma challenging the Buick.

Let the crippled continue to lead the blind.