Alky tuning with WB correction in the 6.0

[WS6]

This is more of 2 part question. One is that I had the chance to pull the TTA out for the first time in months so I could re-learn the ECM with the addition of the TT 6.0 and it's WB correction.
After a few miles of easy driving I pulled over to idle and check my alky pump and I noticed that it wouldn't bog down the idle like it did last year with the 5.6. So I moved on and soft peddled a couple runs up to 12lbs of boost and I did indeed see the L.E.D. go from red to green at 10PSI. I was thinking that maybe the system need to purge air from sitting. After a couple of these light runs I hit it hard with a full throttle blast or two up to 20-22lbs of boost and all seemed well. The WB A/F seemed to be handling things to the numbers of low 11's to 10.1 or so. After that I idled it in park and tried the test button again and it still did not stumble down in idle, but if I held the test button for a 2-3 seconds it would fatten up the A/F to 9-10 ish numbers at idle.A change from 14.5 at idle, but it never really roughened up the idle. So the question is, is that the characteristic of a 6.0 chip with correction capabilities? Or am I indeed not spraying alky?

Second question.

What are some tips to tuning the 6.0 with alky?



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[Jerryl]

This is more of 2 part question. One is that I had the chance to pull the TTA out for the first time in months so I could re-learn the ECM with the addition of the TT 6.0 and it's WB correction.
After a few miles of easy driving I pulled over to idle and check my alky pump and I noticed that it wouldn't bog down the idle like it did last year with the 5.6. So I moved on and soft peddled a couple runs up to 12lbs of boost and I did indeed see the L.E.D. go from red to green at 10PSI. I was thinking that maybe the system need to purge air from sitting. After a couple of these light runs I hit it hard with a full throttle blast or two up to 20-22lbs of boost and all seemed well. The WB A/F seemed to be handling things to the numbers of low 11's to 10.1 or so. After that I idled it in park and tried the test button again and it still did not stumble down in idle, but if I held the test button for a 2-3 seconds it would fatten up the A/F to 9-10 ish numbers at idle.A change from 14.5 at idle, but it never really roughened up the idle. So the question is, is that the characteristic of a 6.0 chip with correction capabilities? Or am I indeed not spraying alky?

Second question.

What are some tips to tuning the 6.0 with alky?



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Let me give this a try .................

The TT 6.0 chip is an "open loop idle" chip, so there would not be any correction for Alky at idle.
With that in mind, I would say you are not spraying enough alky, to get the car to “stumble”.
What is the know setting on the controller at? Try turning it to max (If not yet on max), and try it again. :wink:

As far as the TT 6.0 tuning.
Set the AFR target for 3/4, and log an easy run.
Make sure your BLM’s to max/bottom out and adjust the overall fueling up/down.
Log another run and if you are ok, start leaning it out while watching for KR.
The principles have not changed with the TT 6.0
The ECM/Code just does a lot of the work now, therefore adding consistency with weather/temp changes, and decreasing the tuning time/curve.

 

[pacecarta]

the TT60 WB correction only comes to play above approx 3psi (based on MAF volume being over about 140gmsec) , so no WB correcting at idle ,just runs as a normal TT chip until it enters WB mode

as for the test button
alky spray is based on MAP signal
map at idle = 8-9 psi vac (-8 psi)
less pressure at the map = less alky sprayed , mainly because you wouldn't need it especially at vacuum, alky isn't set to turn on until 6psi (2.0v @ map) and its spraying a small amount even then
thats the way it is on my older controller in my 87 (tt60WB chip) , have to turn the gain knob up during test to get any really bog

my 86 has a newer system with the superpump ,dual nozzles and also has tt 6.0 WB chip. it will bog the instant i touch the test button at idle with gain only half way ..and if i held for one second the motor would die.
I'm sure the duals have some effect on that but i also found when I tested the 3bar sensor that doesn't show the correct voltage at idle (1.2v) that it should (gm sensor from razor) , so the kit believes I'm at about 2psi vac rather than the 8 psi vac (14in/hg) it should be at showing .7v. a proper working sensor would probably lessen the bog but sensor reads correct above 0psi (1.6v) so it really doesn't affect the alky

 

[TurboBuRick]

Just replaced my alky pump for the same reason. (Weak stream )Mine was leaking at the head too so I retired it. Only two years old.

Was your alky tank empty? Thats a tell tale sign.

 

[WS6]

My controller knob is set at 3-4,as it worked with my 5.6 settings and fueling.So I'll crank that up to test the test function. I had no trouble with it last year,the alky system that is, and it sat with a 3/4 tank of methanol from October till now and little if any evaporated or leaked since then.

I'm still a little stumped as to the lack of stumble,coupled with the plunging A/F numbers with the button pressed.Now that I understand the 6.0 is open loop idle.

My MAP sensor maybe flaky as when I was setting up the powerlogger and testing it noticed a discrepency in vacuum signal numbers between the vac/boost gauge and the powerlogger data.

I suppose I have some work to do....when the weather gets better.

 

[Eric Stage I]

The first time you run the car after the chip install, it will stay in closed loop at idle to allow the BLM to learn faster. So it's possible it was in closed loop at idle, and pulling fuel when you hit the test button. The 5.6 and 6.0 chip are exactly the same regarding idle and cruise programming.

On your second question regarding tuning with the 6.0 chip. In your instructions, there is a page called "Tuning with the 6.0 Chip" that gives a lot of good info. Let me know if you have any questions on that.


Eric

 

[WS6]

The first time you run the car after the chip install, it will stay in closed loop at idle to allow the BLM to learn faster. So it's possible it was in closed loop at idle, and pulling fuel when you hit the test button. The 5.6 and 6.0 chip are exactly the same regarding idle and cruise programming.

On your second question regarding tuning with the 6.0 chip. In your instructions, there is a page called "Tuning with the 6.0 Chip" that gives a lot of good info. Let me know if you have any questions on that.


Eric

It may have very well been in closed loop early on in the shake down run as I didn't watch the scanmaster for the blinking pixel. But I did shut it down about 5 minutes after it had warmed up and by the time I brought it back into the shop it was definitely in open loop idle. I just didn't know if the 6.0 used WB correction for idle purposes. The idle seems much more stable with this chip as opposed to 5.6, but again I have what? 15 miles on this chip?Maybe?

And I'll go over the tuning stuff in the instructions and if I have some questions I'll probably post them on your forum at TT.

Thanks

EDIT; Eric, since I didn't have my laptop with me to log I was wondering since I opted for "knock ignore" below 45 will the powerlogger still show any evidence of knock below 45 and that the ECM is just not reacting to it?



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[Eric Stage I]

Unfortunately there will be no way to tell if it's knocking with the knock ignore operating (unless you hear it). A knock gauge would still work though.

Eric

 

[Razor]

IAC setting also plays a role. If your TB is closed, alky may not make it past it.

Its like this.. every car is a little different, battery voltages may be different. One car may be at 12.5 another at 14.3. Your test button sends a small amount of voltage to run the pump. It just simulates how much alky is sprayed when the system activates.

Put the knob on 8 and hit it.. see what happens. Settings of 3-4 are weak.. and may/maynot affect your air fuel.

If you have a WB and you see the numbers drop.. you are spraying. If the LED is going green.. you are 100% spraying as it takes 50 PSI to trip the green light.

So leave things as they are.. just look at your WB and if the AFR drops.. your locked and loaded... or bring the Gain knob up to like 6-7 and call it a day.

Hope this helps.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

I've had this similar issue, knob around noon ( older kit ) with the single wouldn't really kill the car but the WB was reading really rich.

My pump hasn't been rebuilt for 2 years so maybe it's time but try that test with the knob at 8 suggestion and get back.

 

[WS6]

log runs attached

Okay,so I had another clear day and a half hour to ruin so I took the car out with laptop hooked up. I hope I have attached the logs correctly.

To add; It was an ambient 19 degrees out today so that will account for low IAT's. 2nd log you will see that I lost MPH and other gauge functions including the FP gauge,for some reason I popped the 10A gauge fuse,oh well a problem for another time.

Review the logs and tell me what you think. I have not done any changing to the default settings in the chip.

One thing that may be cold temp related is that around 19lb's and up the turbo seems to fluctuate boost.It doesn't buck or anything and it's audible to me,it just seems like the wasetgate isn't controlling bigger boost numbers....it is a stock spring,adjustable controller.

I have input 5 as a FP reading and it's accurate to within 1 lb of both the mechanical and electro mechanical inside the car.

I also went back through last years paper logs of my tuning and I clearly have the knob on my alky at 5-6 and sometimes more,so it must have gotten moved this winter while I was crawiling around uner the dash. I can get the motor to bog set at 6+,but not much and it plunges the A/F numbers even lower than the 3-4 setting of earlier.

 

[87WE4BOOSTED]

Subscribed.:biggrin:

 

[Razor]

19 degree's... that can be trouble.

See most thoughts on tuning are done with temps above 50 degree's. Even methanol has a flash temp of 70 degree's. Not hard to get to 70 with aturbo.. but the hotter you can make the engine, the better the stuff will work. Anything to drop IAT temp when its that cold outside is probably going to set you back.

Crank the fuel, get the engine hot.. as hot as possible.. and really watch your tune-up.

I dont know if Eric accounts for those temps when he makes the chips. On FAST systems, the tune-ups go haywire.. its like a totally different car. We see this when going from Florida to BG in may, or Reynolds in the Fall..

Personally i'd wait till it gets a tad warmer. Plus your tires and road surfaces get hard with cold weather.. actually dangerous.

Keep it safe.

 

[WS6]

19 degree's... that can be trouble.


Personally i'd wait till it gets a tad warmer. Plus your tires and road surfaces get hard with cold weather.. actually dangerous.

Keep it safe.

You mean "keep it safe or keep it sidways" which is what it wanted to do up until about 65MPH!

On a good note I suppose, the alky is functioning just fine.I put it back on 5 1/2 . I really need to grasp the addition of methanol to the A/F and get a handle on that. The new setting is driving my A/F's richer at 10PSI and above.

I've attached another couple short runs. I can't remember which is a roll on romp and which is standing stomp. But I have been soft peddling because the cold temps make traction an issue like Julio pointed out.

And alky knob is set at 5-6...

....
EDIT I also turned the boost down again, I was/am having boost issues above 20 and now I have it just about maxed at 19. Under full boost there is less(alot less) of that surging/boost related noise.


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[TurboBuRick]

Your running rich for sure. If you turn down the boost you need to do the same with the fuel. Street conditions prolly not helping matters. Tracking is pulling max fuel (BLM 115) You need to take some fuel out of the wot.

Considering I never got a test chip let me thumb through Eric's directions.
Reading through, it looks like parameter 4 is wot fuel. Looks like you have not made any adjustments there yet. It's still on the default 128.
Try moving this down to say 119-120. Looks like that will pull out some wot fuel. Go for a blast.

Watch the BLM on wot. If it's still stuck on 115 your still rich :biggrin: but you should see some kind of change with that adjustment.

 

[TurboBuRick]

Ws6

Did you get it?

Any new logs?

 

[WS6]

Did you get it?

Any new logs?

Weatherman has not been helpful to my cause. I did change some advance settings in the LC1 and moved #4 in the chip to 117, but rain has hampered any testing....at least it's washing the salt off the roads.


I'll post some logs as soon as I get some dry roads.

 

[WS6]

Okay, attached are 2 latest logs. Changes made were lowering #4 to 117. Car seems a wee bit faster and this time ambient temps were 50 F. Alky knob set at 4 1/2. I'm still FAT up top it seems and I'm not sure why??

I'm still having that upper RPM/boost issue and it's hard to describe but it sounds like maybe ignition break up. The car doesn't buck or anything nor does it pop or backfire, it just lays down for a fraction of a second and recovers and does it again and again in a rythmic cyclical fashion. You can see it in the logs up around 17-18 PSI,watch the boost drop 1/2 to 1 pound of boost. It's silky smooth till 3rd and 4th gear at higher RPM's and boost.

 

[TurboBuRick]

Definitely leaned it out some. Prolly so rich because low boost and alky.

As far as the breaking up, your prolly on the right track with the ignition.
Wonder if it would act the same in batch fire mode.

 

[WS6]

Wonder if it would act the same in batch fire mode.

Okay Rick, here's 2 more logs from today. Only thing different is I turned up the boost a bit. I did not mess with the fueling at #4 as it seems the conscenus is that my boost is too low.

Difference between the 2 is one is in batchfire mode and one is not. I'm not sure why you wanted a batchfire run? But for what it's worth the car ran slower,per say, and that break up/stumble is still present at upper RPM and boost.

I got a little knock too and quite sure why?I have 3rd log but it's about the same as the non-batchfire run.

Tell me what you think and any tips on why I'm have the upper boost/RPM stumble.

Thanks,Rich