I use only Johnson lifters FWIW, I get them from Dave and Bison. I have several sets of used Morels and comps laying around. I am no expert but I stay with what works. I usually run about 150 on the seat and 400+ open for pressures, .030 preload max. I've spent a lot of time talking to both Bison and Dave and they have taught me bunches about valvetrain stuff. Like I said I will stay with what has worked for me and my customers.
Any good hyd roller lifters other than clicky Comps?
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You've got some builders that like .0025-.003 for clearences that requires 20w-50. IMO if you bearing clearences are .0015-002 and rod side clearence is tight you will have oil pressure to the moon on 10w-30-40
Buick Mark
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Go with Johnson lifters, Morels are garbage
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At the time I started this thread, Morel made the Hyd rollers for Johnson.
Not sure if this has changed.
i think alot of the problems some may have is in the changing of the guard in these companies.
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I have Johnson's in my new engine. They are as loud and clicky as any I've heard.
Jus' sayin.
Jus' sayin.
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For the record, Set #1 of the Morels are still going strong in my car after eleven years. Still very quiet.
Seat pressure on the springs is 155 lbs. Preload is .035". 212/212 cam. I run Mobil-1 10w30 syn, with a splash of Lucas oil (zink) engine break in additive. When I have Turbo Lou freashen up this engine, I'm going to re-use the lifters.
Seat pressure on the springs is 155 lbs. Preload is .035". 212/212 cam. I run Mobil-1 10w30 syn, with a splash of Lucas oil (zink) engine break in additive. When I have Turbo Lou freashen up this engine, I'm going to re-use the lifters.
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My valve train has been noisier than I would like it to be since the day I took the stock cam out and put a 208/208 hydraulic flat tappet cam in .
Then I moved up to a hydraulic roller with Comp lifters. How can you have link bars flying around and not making noise?
Now I have a 281/218 with XFI lobes and Johnson lifters and the extra spring pressure needed to control everything. It is the loudest valve train I have ever had,but I've been attributing the noise to the fast ramps.
Does your cam have aggressive ramps?
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I think the extra noise is from the fast ramps and I've heard people in the LS community mention increased noise after installing cams with XFI lobes.
BEATAV8
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I think you're right.
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I have always felt that most excessive noise was probably do to poor lifter tolerances. This is just my gut feeling and I have no proof.
I've run different lifters on the same cam and have had night and day results. I suspect that a more aggressive lobe ramp could also affect noise.
I'd like to hear others opinions.
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Jerryl
Tall Unvaccinated Chinese Guy
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I have a set of early morels and they are pretty quiet. There are a lot of reasons for noise besides the lifters themselves and I see a lot of lifters with insufficient preload on *some* valves, same engine.
I am convinced however that their quality seriously slipped in later years because they underestimated global sourcing requirements strategy.
My white car has roller lifters from Bison and they are pretty quit as well. Most of the noise is from the link bar.
It will never be as quiet as a FT, but not a concern for me.
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When this thread was started, Morels were made in the USA. Not sure if this is still the case.
SS/GN
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I was talking with a BBC builder and he has a pretty good in with Morel and says they are Made In USA.
FYI
FYI
TIMINATOR
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Has anyone that is having lifter noise problems opened up the crossover passage to the passenger side lifter galley? Thru the years we have seen 327 chevies where the passenger lifter feed galleys don't line up where they intersect front to back in the middle of the engine. This causes the front 4 lifters to starve above about 3500 rpm causing noise and horsepower loss. Chevy also has a much superior oiling system on the small blocks, and a much larger crossover between lifter galleys. I opened up the crossover on my current project just because I am anal and inspect EVERYTHING.
Feedback please?
Just my 2 cents.
TIMINATOR
Feedback please?
Just my 2 cents.
TIMINATOR
TIMINATOR
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I am gonna piss off all of you diehard Buick fans, but these are my experiences with building hundreds of many different makes of engines.
The problems with Comp and other lifters isn't the lifters, it is the application in which they are used. We now have Morel and Johnson lifters to choose from, something we didn't have before. The Buicks oiling system is third rate compared to other engines. Not meant to offend, but true. Millions of Chevy lifters have been sold by several companies that work fine in almost all applications. The two biggest issues with hydraulic lifters are use in power adder engine applications. Whether by adding boost by any means, or injecting nitrous oxide into an engine makes more power. If you double the power output, you will more than double the cylinder pressure.
A 1.5" exhaust valve has 1.77 square inches of head area, multiply that times the cylinder pressure at the end of the power stroke. What is that? Anyone here got that info? Just for arguments sake, let's say it's 300 lbs/psi, multiplied by 1.77" area, that's 530 pounds, add the spring pressure to that, mebbie 125 lbs seat pressure, and you have 655 lbs as the valve opens. All pressing against an approximately 5/8" plunger with 200 degree hot oil in it, happening 50 times a SECOND at 6000 rpm.
And all of this is happening in an engine with a poorer oiling system, and boost that the engineers for the economy V-6 engines the lifters were designed for.
The cure: better lifters or solid lifters.
Hydraulic ifters are already made with plunger clearances in the hundred thousandth or better fitment to mitigate bleed down. Windage trays, dry sump systems, and modified drainback systems help mitigate oil aeration which makes this bleeddown situation worse.
Jetboats which typically cruise at 3000 rpm and above and have the added problem of getting bounced around by waves, throwing more oil against the crank and aerating it even more, and blower boats, both with elevated oil temps. significantly benefit from solid lifter use.
Just because Chevy lifters fit in the Buicks doesn't mean that they are a good choice.
As a matter of fact, a while back, I purchased a 572" 14-71 blown, intercooled 25 foot boat that the owner and his engine builder could not get to run over 98 mph at 14 lbs boost. It had a Hydraulic liftered Crane roller cam with .685" lift. As I had previous experience with Cranes first foray into Hydraulic roller cams in 1986, (a dismal failure and a Loooong story) I did the same thing that I did then, I installed solid rollers, lashed at .004 intake and .006 exhaust. The boat then ran 114 mph with a quiet valvetrain. The indicated boost dropped to 11 1/2 lbs.
The boost drop happens because when bled down, the lifters significantly decrease the effective lift and duration of the cam keeping the intake charge in the manifold, instead of in the cylinders.
As another example, Harley Davidson engines use Chevy Hydraulic lifters too. The horsepower difference between lashing at a half turn down, to lashing a half turn off of the bottom is significant! In the case of my 117" motor, lashed from the top makes 128 HP. Lashed from the bottom it makes 136 HP! That's a TWO cylinder engine at 6100 rpm with hot oil.
I buy my lifters from Johnson and specify short travel, slow bleed down lifters for my HP less than maximum builds. The HP stuff gets solids.
P.S. A friend that is an engineer at a lifter company stated that the best oil filter in your engine is the Hydraulic lifter! Change your oil often, and use a good quality!
TIMINATOR
The problems with Comp and other lifters isn't the lifters, it is the application in which they are used. We now have Morel and Johnson lifters to choose from, something we didn't have before. The Buicks oiling system is third rate compared to other engines. Not meant to offend, but true. Millions of Chevy lifters have been sold by several companies that work fine in almost all applications. The two biggest issues with hydraulic lifters are use in power adder engine applications. Whether by adding boost by any means, or injecting nitrous oxide into an engine makes more power. If you double the power output, you will more than double the cylinder pressure.
A 1.5" exhaust valve has 1.77 square inches of head area, multiply that times the cylinder pressure at the end of the power stroke. What is that? Anyone here got that info? Just for arguments sake, let's say it's 300 lbs/psi, multiplied by 1.77" area, that's 530 pounds, add the spring pressure to that, mebbie 125 lbs seat pressure, and you have 655 lbs as the valve opens. All pressing against an approximately 5/8" plunger with 200 degree hot oil in it, happening 50 times a SECOND at 6000 rpm.
And all of this is happening in an engine with a poorer oiling system, and boost that the engineers for the economy V-6 engines the lifters were designed for.
The cure: better lifters or solid lifters.
Hydraulic ifters are already made with plunger clearances in the hundred thousandth or better fitment to mitigate bleed down. Windage trays, dry sump systems, and modified drainback systems help mitigate oil aeration which makes this bleeddown situation worse.
Jetboats which typically cruise at 3000 rpm and above and have the added problem of getting bounced around by waves, throwing more oil against the crank and aerating it even more, and blower boats, both with elevated oil temps. significantly benefit from solid lifter use.
Just because Chevy lifters fit in the Buicks doesn't mean that they are a good choice.
As a matter of fact, a while back, I purchased a 572" 14-71 blown, intercooled 25 foot boat that the owner and his engine builder could not get to run over 98 mph at 14 lbs boost. It had a Hydraulic liftered Crane roller cam with .685" lift. As I had previous experience with Cranes first foray into Hydraulic roller cams in 1986, (a dismal failure and a Loooong story) I did the same thing that I did then, I installed solid rollers, lashed at .004 intake and .006 exhaust. The boat then ran 114 mph with a quiet valvetrain. The indicated boost dropped to 11 1/2 lbs.
The boost drop happens because when bled down, the lifters significantly decrease the effective lift and duration of the cam keeping the intake charge in the manifold, instead of in the cylinders.
As another example, Harley Davidson engines use Chevy Hydraulic lifters too. The horsepower difference between lashing at a half turn down, to lashing a half turn off of the bottom is significant! In the case of my 117" motor, lashed from the top makes 128 HP. Lashed from the bottom it makes 136 HP! That's a TWO cylinder engine at 6100 rpm with hot oil.
I buy my lifters from Johnson and specify short travel, slow bleed down lifters for my HP less than maximum builds. The HP stuff gets solids.
P.S. A friend that is an engineer at a lifter company stated that the best oil filter in your engine is the Hydraulic lifter! Change your oil often, and use a good quality!
TIMINATOR
The camshaft used needs the appropriate spring pressures.
The more aggressive the lobes and higher lift the more spring pressures and better lifters are needed
It's all about goals.
I've made 1000hp without solid lifters on a 109
So it can be done.
My engine builder does modify the buick engine oil system.
Imno its neccessary to make bigger power.
TIMINATOR
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To a past post, Comp Cams roller cams typically have a faster ramp rate than most other cams. Thats why they tend to be noisier, especially with roller rockers, AND make more horsepower. My custom Buick roller cam had 14 different available lifts and ramp rates available for the same duration at .050! Choose your noise, valvetrain durability (street, drag, boat, etc.), and lift with relation to head flow and intended power. If you are not well enough informed to make a good catalogue or custom selection, the guys manning their Cam Help line will aid you.
Like "crate motors" in relation to custom builts, off the shelf cams are someone else's idea of what you need. Comp also sells other lifters than what is catalogued, they will help with that selection also.
Find someone with a cam analyzer and check a few different brands of "identical" cams, you will be amazed at the "area under the curve" differences.
Some smaller companies that still grind cams from old master lobe specimens that only have old, less aggressive patterns, spec their cams with less advertised durations and lift than they actually are, so they will make similar HP to modern cams.
Problems there include:
Less bottom end torque than you expect
Poorer idle quality
Slower spool up time
And often higher actual lift than advertised! That will bite YOU in the butt if your shop sets up your heads to what the cam card says! I was almost sued over that once! I had the customer cool off enough to bring in his cam to analyze first. His 276@.050 .738 lift cam actually speced as: 284@.050 and .780 lift (BBChevy race cam)
The cam companies defense, the owner said his catalogue stated: YOU MUST USE OUR COMPLETE CAM KIT WITH OUR CAMS!
The customer had me check his existing springs and set them up to the cam card specs. I don't do that any more! Bring me your cam and card!
TIMINATOR
Like "crate motors" in relation to custom builts, off the shelf cams are someone else's idea of what you need. Comp also sells other lifters than what is catalogued, they will help with that selection also.
Find someone with a cam analyzer and check a few different brands of "identical" cams, you will be amazed at the "area under the curve" differences.
Some smaller companies that still grind cams from old master lobe specimens that only have old, less aggressive patterns, spec their cams with less advertised durations and lift than they actually are, so they will make similar HP to modern cams.
Problems there include:
Less bottom end torque than you expect
Poorer idle quality
Slower spool up time
And often higher actual lift than advertised! That will bite YOU in the butt if your shop sets up your heads to what the cam card says! I was almost sued over that once! I had the customer cool off enough to bring in his cam to analyze first. His 276@.050 .738 lift cam actually speced as: 284@.050 and .780 lift (BBChevy race cam)
The cam companies defense, the owner said his catalogue stated: YOU MUST USE OUR COMPLETE CAM KIT WITH OUR CAMS!
The customer had me check his existing springs and set them up to the cam card specs. I don't do that any more! Bring me your cam and card!
TIMINATOR
