Any turbo work for high 10s off the foot brake on a stock longblock/intake/converter?

[22lbChevelle]

Hey guys scored a great job so my plan is to get a Strange dana 60 rear end in my car with 3.55's first, then build a thh400 with a brake, then 83#s with a ecm mod and get rid of the big ugly hard to fill buick gas tank and switch to a fuel cell with a big pump and lines. Im hoping theres a turbo that will get me high tens with a stock longblock/intake manifold is it possible?

This all on a stockish converter and drag radials

 

[bison]

Why? It will take a lot more than a turbo. There are plenty that will do it.

 

[Slow91z]

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make sense to me, the stock drivetrain will live behind a stock motor fine no matter what turbo you put on it (tranny may need to be rebuilt, but nothing crazy), why in the world would you need a 60 and 400??

 

[gteatr6]

You don't have to mod the ecm anymore either to use 80# injectors. I would also build the 200r4.

 

[1fast6]

If your gonna put a 400 with a brake in it why the stock converter?

 

[pacecarta]

and why 83s ?? unless plans are for a double pumper or a large external 65# mototrons are more than capable of flowing more than the single intank pump and dont need any ecm mod , and as collin pointed out there are other HighZ injector options these days that dont need the driver mod , but they would be a waste without more fuel pump

why not junk that stock converter before it takes out your thrust bearing,
a 9-10" 2800-3400 converter will open up a world of possible turbos that can meet your goal
oh and your going to need head porting, if you think your going to hit tens in the chevelle with stock heads its not going to happen , youll be pushing well into 30 psi no matter what turbo you put on it , open the heads up and 10s become much easier

 

[22lbChevelle]

Oh well I didn't mean I was gunna stay with a stock converter, I just couldn't go back and edit the title of the thread. However I don't want to go over a 3200 or so stall because it will be mostly street driven (not long trips but a lot of street driving) so is that not enough either?

The Dana 60 is about as much as it would take to build a 12 bolt for the car, and I dont even have the 12 bolt to begin with. They are brand new $1900 from Strange with 35 spline setup ready to bolt in. They are also cheaper than a 9in from moser or currie. Basically I don't want to have to touch the thing for a long time if I'm gunna be putting a new rear end in it. Right now I have a mini spooled 10 bolt with 2.73s for christ's sake.

I was unaware of not having to mod the ecm anymore for 83# injectors. I could go with 60# high Z but if I'm buying a chip and injectors why not go with something that will give me even more head room. And I did mention going to a fuel cell and big external pump/ big lines (read double pumper equivalent).

And I want the 400 for the same reason as the rearend, I dont want to have to rebuild it all the time. Sure a 200r4 can be built but it aint cheap guys and you know that. I have another car for long trips so I'm not as concerned about overdrive.

Also you don't think a stock headed motor can get a 3200lb chevelle into the high tens? I thought it could but if not then I guess Ill need to plan on heads too.

 

[22lbChevelle]

Any takers?

I'm not buying all of the parts right away obviously but I will do it part by part and want to create a plan so I don't waste money with the wrong stuff.

 

[pontiac69fb]

Any takers?

I'm not buying all of the parts right away obviously but I will do it part by part and want to create a plan so I don't waste money with the wrong stuff.

Well let's look at this logically. What rwhp level will you need to get a 3200lb 3400lb (with driver) vehicle into the high 10's comfortably, my best estimate is in the 460-480 rwhp range. Factor in the extra power the th-400 and dana 60 will suck up, and your looking at probably around a 25% drivetrain loss. Multiply 480 by 1.25 and you get 600 fwhp. Which means you will need a turbo that will net you at least 600 fwhp, so you're looking at needing at least Te-60 or larger turbo to run high tens in a 3400lb (with driver) chevelle with a th 400 and dana 60.

 

[RUQWKNF]

My O2's worth.

Pro's:
- 3400# with driver is a nice race weight to start with.
- TH400 trans will live forever in a 650 fwhp application. And if you fully rollerize it, the hp loss will be minimal. I highly recommend having roller bearings installed throughout the trans if you go this route. Also, it is beneficial to have the 1st and 2nd gear ratios changed to be as close as possible to the TH200 trans' 1st and 2nd gear. (TH200-4R first = 2.74, second = 1.57 vs TH400 first = 2.48, second = 1.48) This will dramatically help keep the engine in it's power band.
- A properly built 8.5" 10 bolt rear end will take you a very long way and be every bit as strong as other differentials. Not to mention less hp loss to turn it. Just ask those who have taken them deep into the low nines, some out there who have even gone high 8's with a purpose built 8.5" 10 bolt factory rear end.
- Low impedance injectors are not needed with todays technology, if your goals are mid - high 10's. As said before Mototron 60# high impedance injectors can safely support 720 fwhp, with a matching fuel pump and properly sized lines. Combined with a Turbotweak chip, you're good to go. If you are more comfortable with a larger injector, then go with the new 80# high impedance injectors. Just know that drive ability will be slightly lower with the larger injectors. MPG and street manners etc etc etc. Turbotweak does have the chips for these 80# injectors though.

Con's:
- Changing rear gear ratio much higher than a 3.73 will move you out of your effective power band of a stock cam, stock headed engine. Sure it will help the car react and accelerate a little bit quicker, but it will cost you drive ability on the street, especially with a 3spd trans and no overdrive or lock up converter. 3.42's are very well matched to our stock motor's torque curve with a TH200-4R trans' gear ratios. We're talking maybe 1200-1600 rpm worth of power band here to work with on stock engine parts. 3200-4800 rpm realistically.
- Suspension will definitely need to be addressed if you want to hook the car hard enough on drag radials with a trans brake to run high 10's. This is where a nice set of heads and a roller cam will pay off big time. Ex: A stock motor typically needs high boost launches and 1.50ish short times to run in the high 10's with a stock long block, vs moderate boost launches and slower short times to reach the same goals on a heads, cam and intake motor. It's always better to run lower boost on these motors from a reliability stand point.

If I were to spec a turbo for this combination today, taking into account the car, street vs strip manners and your goals, I would choose a Billet 6265 air cooled dual ball bearing turbo with a SP compressor cover, a .63 A/R 3-bolt turbine housing and a heavy duty wastegate actuator. This turbo would definitely support high 10's at your race weight and have the capability to go faster if you went with ported heads, matching intake and cam. I would also contact Dusty about a PTC converter for whichever transmission you go with.
Hope some of this helps and sorry so long winded.

Patrick

 

[turbo6man]

Hi I have a 1963 chevy II with a gn motor in it and you can see from my sig I am allittle bit more modified than I think you want to go. But my combination will give you an actual real world application of what you are thinking about. I am having alot of torque converter issues with mine as it drives thru it very bad,the local builder is on his third re stall, and I agree with the previous post to talk to Dusty to get the correct converter the first time. Any way my 02 cents is this: My car is similar in weight and I had a very easy time as far as suspension and tuning to get this car to run 11.00 in the high 120's. But for me to get it to run my best time so far of 10.56 @130 it was alot harder. It was a difference in the 60' the 11.0's are in the 1.7 sec range and the 10.5 was a 1.47 60'. the above times were with 3.50 gear ratio in a ford 9" and th350 and 25psi boost at about 200' sea level(Sacramento raceway) and shifting at 5500 to 5800. I am trying to say that it was easy for me to run the 1.7 60'(can do off a foot brake start) but holly smokes it took alot of suspension changes/pinion angle/4 bar adjustments and a boosted trans brake launch to get it to the 10.5. Also the seat of your pants difference is HUGE!! The 11.0 was a smooth controlled easy launch with a steady pull. The faster time was a trans braked violent rip the seat out difference. I don't know if this post is helpful but here is a link to my build pics http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/hybrids/270436-1963-chevy-ii.html The last thing I would like to say is the setup I have in my car is VERY streetable, idles fine, great throttle response and yes the turbo has some lag but It is very tolerable to me and I know it will be better when I get the converter from Dusty. I have since changed to 3.25 gears (feels alittle more sluggish on the street but is AWESOME on the freeway) and added a cage which made the car 3300 with me in it and the car ran consistant 10.6 untill I broke the stock 9" 3rd member at pinks all out infenion last month.:smile:

 

[22lbChevelle]

Awesome responses thanks!

Thanks for the tips on rollerizing the th400 i will look into that as well as what it costs for the gear change. I wasnt planning on going any lower than 3.55

Also when i say i have a 10 bolt it is a chevelle 10 bolt that is only 8.2in which would be very foolish to try and build.

pontiac69fb You mention the TE60 and after some searches I have found some people saying they wish they went with a te62 instead first. Is it much slower spooling and how much more stall would it need?

Thanks again I figure having a detailed plan will save me money in the long run.

 

[pontiac69fb]

Awesome responses thanks!

Thanks for the tips on rollerizing the th400 i will look into that as well as what it costs for the gear change. I wasnt planning on going any lower than 3.55

Also when i say i have a 10 bolt it is a chevelle 10 bolt that is only 8.2in which would be very foolish to try and build.

pontiac69fb You mention the TE60 and after some searches I have found some people saying they wish they went with a te62 instead first. Is it much slower spooling and how much more stall would it need?

Thanks again I figure having a detailed plan will save me money in the long run.

I have the TE 60 turbo, th 350 trans with a 9.5" 3000 stall, and from a rolling start in 2nd and 3rd gear my turbo has no lag whatsoever when my foot hits the floor my car is at full boost! However my turbo came with the .63 Garret Housing, a precision housing is larger so it may spool slower. I wasn't necessary recommending the Te 60 over the larger turbos, although for my combo the te-60 is perfect. The purpose of my post was to suggest a turbo at least that size or larger to get you to your goals of high tens. However one last thing to keep in mind is the thread http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/general-turbo-buick-tech/329993-interesting-turbo-dyno-test-tonight-bigger-isnt-always-better.html what I take from that thread is that you should find the happy medium in turbo size small turbo's won't always get you to your goals but the larger ones won't either you need to have the right turbo to match your combination, or you're leaving top end power or spoolup on the table.

 

[TurboTnZ06]

then go with the new 80# high impedance injectors. Just know that drive ability will be slightly lower with the larger injectors. MPG and street manners etc etc etc. Turbotweak does have the chips for these 80# injectors though.

I have the new 80's with my stock ECM and TT chip and no driveability issues, of course I have a MAF Translator GenII, but the trims are 0% and its drives perfect, instant throttle response, great idle.

 

[Blazer406]

Minimum turbo I would recommend with solid high 10 second potential would be a 6152 or like Bison's thread.... a 6176. You will need a converter and other supporting bolt-ons to make either of these turbos work good.

 

[turbo6man]

Hi, I am not saying the gear ratio you have chosen is wrong it might be perfect for your application. I would just feel bad if I did not state the following and give you a useful website to check because I wish I would have done this before I made my gear ratio choice. I am not sure what your shift RPM and desired end of 1/4 RPM is. You really need to know that for rear end gear ratio selection, because th400 is a 1:1 gear ratio in high gear and you will not have an overdrive gear to get you to the end of the 1/4. I was at TCI® - Sorry... and here is an example:28" tall tire and rear end ratio of 3.55 and a trans high gear ratio of 1:1 and going thru 1/4 mile at 123mph(about high ten second MPH) and 8% convertor slippage will put you at going thru the traps at 5661 RPM. Make sure you are not out of your max RPM because the non overdrive trans is less forgiving at the end of the 1/4. I know this because I put in 3.50 gears and had to change them right away. My pocket book said ouch

 

[22lbChevelle]

Aye and that is with only 8% slip. However 3.54 is the highest gears available for the S60 rear end.

 

[turbo6man]

Oh, I did not know that the Dana 60 ring and pinion selection was like that. What is the tallest tire you can fit because as an example with the same calculations as my last post, only using a 31" tire it lowers the RPM to 5113 RPM

 

[22lbChevelle]

Well I put my dad's 275/60R15's on and had TONS of room. I could always do mods to make bigger tires fit too however the end product Im shooting for is a fast street car.

Ive noticed a lot of comments mention how a long block wont get me to my goals very easily so I will look into how heads and cam will fit into the plans.

 

[Grumpy]

you do know your starting a big $$$$ pit right ?? Dana 60 !!?? waste of time an $$$.. Put a STOCK GN rear end an call it a day .. There just saved ya a ton of $$$ an a ton of excess weight !!