Anybody watch the Peter Jennings/ABCNEWS special on the JFK assassination?

[black heat]

88:

Pretty convincing.

 

[2quiktocare]

It actually comes down to one thing only. The government needs to release the papers that were sealed for 99 years now so we can actually see what happened and why it had to be sealed for 99 years to start with. There can be no more damage done by the facts than has already been done by the total lack of anything plausible. If in fact it was solely Oswald, then so be it. The trouble comes in with the relative short time span that he had to work in after the Texas motorcade was set up to occur. The exact route was known only to the Secret Service and this lone gunman able to pull it all off? I will accept the 3 shots from the one low quality, inaccurate rifle, the magic bullit, and accurate shooting by one so so shooter. Even if everything possible went totally right, then how was he able to set up this whole thing when the route wasn't even set up yet?
I have no real problem with him being a shooter, but this was beyond the scope of anything he could of planned. At least planned on his own.
Maybe we should sue the government to release the files that are sealed away. Most everyone involved would be dead now. So, we can take the truth now. At least this country could have closure on what it has been fighting over for 40 years



Mark

 

[DonnieShort]

Originally posted by Vendor Defendor
with the interview of the guy, i am sorry, but his name slipped my mind, who was the 'best fingerprinter in the country' said it was a 34 point match with his interview with the History Channel

Vendor thanks for backing me up on that. That's where I saw it too. And it was stated as being a 34 point match. The expert that was on after the fingerprint guy said if you took the fingerprint evidence to any defense lawer it would be a slam dunk, meaning that someone else besides Oswald ( or instead of ) was in that snipers nest.

2quik2care I completly agree with everything you said. But IMO they sealed it for that long because they wanted everyone that was involved to be good and dead leaving no one to have to answer for anything. Why would they seal everything if it was as simple as Oswald being the lone gunman? Something is there that they did not want to come out.

 

[Joe 1320]

There are some things that I have a really tough time going along with. I've thought about this for many years and I have to voice an opinion. I happen to own a British .303 with a scope. It is the same type that Oswald supposedly used. I've used it many times and have learned some things about it's characteristics.

First, this rifle has one heck of a recoil. It's not something that you can keep steady and follow where your shot lands. Oswald could not have seen the damage done by his rounds.

Second, because of the recoil, the time required to load the next round is hindered and takes longer than simply demostrating by not actually firing a live round.

Third, the .303 slug itself transfers alot of energy to it's target. There is no way that JFK's head would have been thrown backward by a shot from the rear. Even a glancing blow would have the force similar to being hit with a cinderblock.

fourth, whatever soft target is hit with a .303 has a much larger exit wound that what is shown on the front of JFK's neck, even after a tracheotomy. This round is a tumber that, once it strikes a target, becomes unstabe and tumbles through an object. In an area the size of a neck, there would have been little left in the throat area.

There is no way that from the angle that Oswald was supposedly firing from, he would have caused the damage as described. It's against the laws of physics. Granted bullets can do some odd things, but they still have to follow the basic laws of physics.

Unfortunately, it is doubtful that we will ever know the truth. It was pretty evident why Oswald was killed. To keep him silent.....

 

[Vendor Defendor]

i thought Oswald used some sort of Italian gun??

-edit- yeah, wasnt it this?

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/mann.htm

 

[Lee_Burough]

I watched it. I watched PJ on the news for many, many years. But now, I thank heaven for FNC

That said, I have to say the digital images (that was the part without PJ, for those of you who didn't see it) were VERY convincing.

In fact, it showed very graphically why all these people dissing the "pristine bullet" theory are wrong. You'd have to see the digital explaination to understand the unlikely path of that bullet.

At least three shots fired: 1) hit Kennedy and Connolly 2) Missed and hit a curb by a deaf person (prolly went through the windshield) 3) head shot from behind.

I'm grey haired and a grampa now....Fairly cynical too. I've been a doubter of the Warren report for many years. Most of my doubts were put to rest with the digital rendering of: The site, the rendering of the movements of the car, the seating arrangement in the car (incorrectly represented in prior explanations), the dipiction of Kennedy's and Connolly's body movements with information from the Zapruder films, and, the flight paths of the bullets.

The show reiterated how the corpse of our President was poorly handled during the autopsy and during the flight back to Washington. A dirty shame how people abuse their power. Shortcutting police procedure in this case really inmpacted the autopsy, fostering many many incorrect and innacurate reports surrounding the investigation.

So, with a cautious acquiescence, I think the Warren report is the most likely version of what really happened. We'll never know. Why Oswald did it, and who he might have been involved with, we'll never know.


It was a sad day for America, wherever the impetous for the assasination originated.

 

[GNandGS]

They DID take an exact match of gun and get a sharpshooter guy to shoot at a melon from the same distance/angles and you know what? He did it in the time allowed.

Quirks with a gun? Sure, even two identical guns can act slightly different... all the reinactment guy needed was a little practice to get familiar with the particular gun they used.

Magic Bullet? Given the part of the video you cannot see thanks to the roadsign, nobody knows exactly the linup of the victims to the shooter. No matter, its not a stretch to make that shot without all the turns claimed when describing it as "magic"... they showed this on Fox or History or some channel last week. Not that much direction change when you know the positons better. Stranger things have happened tho AND SOMEONE GAVE A REAL LIFE EXAMPLE IN AN EARLIER POST.

Ive seen footage taken of what happens when you take THAT model gun, THAT type of amunition, and shoot a skull encased in balistics gel... yup... goes BACKWARDS.

Not many folks think there are 8 shots... most would say there are only 4 if it isnt 3... funny... NOBODY says NO shots came from LHO... that means maybe he only fired once? Twice? If its been shown recently with an OLD gun of the same model that those shots could be made its much less of a stretch than grassy knoll theories.

I can buy a second shooter and 4 shots. But I also buy how its possible it was one shooter and 3 shots! At this point its easier to prove the 3 shot one shooter than any other...

S

 

[88 CuttyClassic]

Originally posted by lburou


That said, I have to say the digital images (that was the part without PJ, for those of you who didn't see it) were VERY convincing.

In fact, it showed very graphically why all these people dissing the "pristine bullet" theory are wrong. You'd have to see the digital explaination to understand the unlikely path of that bullet.



I'm grey haired and a grampa now....Fairly cynical too. I've been a doubter of the Warren report for many years. Most of my doubts were put to rest with the digital rendering of: The site, the rendering of the movements of the car, the seating arrangement in the car (incorrectly represented in prior explanations), the dipiction of Kennedy's and Connolly's body movements with information from the Zapruder films, and, the flight paths of the bullets.

did you not read what i posted? that digital rendering only showed the wounds from the magic bullet up until conelly's chest. After that they never went into his wrist or thigh because if they did it would blow that therory apart. They just stopped that segment and never talked about the other two wounds. Most people wouldn't even know about the other two wounds to connelly and be dazzeled by the "digital" high tech crap. That gives that whole special ZERO credibility, they can't even give you the whole story of already KNOWN facts.

Also its not 99 years, its 75. 2038? i think they will be released.

 

[88 CuttyClassic]

Originally posted by GNandGS
They DID take an exact match of gun and get a sharpshooter guy to shoot at a melon from the same distance/angles and you know what? He did it in the time allowed.

again, look at that test itself, the guy takes the head shot first when the limo was closest, if oswald would have supposedly done it the head shot was last when the car was farther away and he would have fractions of a second to line it up. Oswald was only 24 i believe. he still could have been a good shot but they guy doing the shooting for the test was a LONG time sharpshooter. to do that test right they have to take the head shot last.

Come on people, where are the critical thinkers here. i'm only 24 and all i think about it cars and pie and i come up with this stuff.

 

[GNandGS]

The one I watched covered the wrist...

Now the bad thing is those wounds you mention would NOT have come from the tracks, the knoll, or sewer. Talk about a magic bullet!

 

[GNandGS]

Originally posted by 88 CuttyClassic
again, look at that test itself, the guy takes the head shot first when the limo was closest, if oswald would have supposedly done it the head shot was last when the car was farther away and he would have fractions of a second to line it up. Oswald was only 24 i believe. he still could have been a good shot but they guy doing the shooting for the test was a LONG time sharpshooter. to do that test right they have to take the head shot last.

Come on people, where are the critical thinkers here. i'm only 24 and all i think about it cars and pie and i come up with this stuff.

You SHOULD question things! Excellent! Every dog has his day! I have in my life sunk the 8ball on the break when the house rules said it was a win... if the tester had 100 "tests" his hits to the melon would have been in a different order almost everytime. Nothing about that argument says it isnt possible HE WAS TRYING ALL THREE TIMES also.

I compare actual photos to the magic bullet drawings and they dont match at all!

S

 

[GNandGS]

Popular picture from Warren Report:
http://grandsubversion.com/images/single_Bullet_Theory_Magic/bullet_path_5.jpg

I say thats just a sketch... hindsight theorist point to that as proof the bullet didnt/couldnt do what it did.

Heres the rub and why I can kinda see a fourth shot: They made a lot of mistakes! Even that diagram doesnt show the exact positioning... TODAY that sort of report wouldnt fly but I submitt it wasnt that unusual back then... CSI anyone? Back then you didnt have near the level of detail.

In the following note that many reinactments were done with a Cadillac that did NOT have seats that could raise or lower like the presidents...

From http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Bullet_Theory we get:


"Contrary to the impression created when viewing the film two-dimensionally, the jump seat on which Connally was sitting was not located directly in front of Kennedy but in the centre right of the car, with Connally's right ahead of Kennedy's left. In addition, the seat was lower than Kennedy's and Connally was sitting on the seat at an angle at the moment of impact. With this new evidence in mind, forensic and ballistic experts analysing the trajectory of bullets were of the opinion that Connally's lower position, at an angle in front of the President's left, lined him up perfectly to be hit by a bullet, had one indeed gone through Kennedy. In addition, Kennedy's posture, in which he was leaning forward (probably on account of his back pains) meant that a bullet could enter Kennedy's back, then his throat which due to his slumped position was pushed forward and lower than the entry point, and then hit Connally.

The Warren Commission claimed that the slug found on Connally's stretcher at Parkland Hospital (coded CE399 by the Commission) was the 'magic bullet'. This slug, other than being about 1.5% below average mass and with a small dent in the side towards the tail, was in perfect condition; in particular, its copper jacket was intact, despite leaving lead fragments in Connally's wrist. Critics claim out that a bullet that passed through several layers of clothing and flesh, smashed a four inch section of a rib, and broke a radius bone could not be in such good shape. However ballistics experts observe that that type of bullet is designed to remain intact. In addition, other than Connally's wrist, the bullet had not hit any bone, but passed largely through tissue.

The Warren Commission's explanation of the little damage to the 'magic bullet' is that by passing through the President's neck and Governor Connally's chest the bullet was slowed down, began to tumble, and did not hit the Governor's wrist in a 'pristine' state. Test shots showed that a fast, pristine bullet would sustain more damage (and would also inflict significantly more damage) when smashing a radius bone. A slowed down and tumbling bullet, however, that hits the wrist end-on or partly with the side could be consistent with the Governor's wrist wounds and the bullet's little damage.

Skeptics make another point: the only known examination of Kennedy's back wound—the first wound attributed to the magic bullet—is from the Bethesda pathologists, who noted a steep 45–60° downward angle and no exit. The ‘Oswald window’ was only about 20° above Kennedy at the time.[1] However skeptics point out that the Bethesda examiners were harried and harrassed; it's quite possible the record is in error. One doctor initially presumed the wound on the front of the President's throat to be an entry point, only to conclude later that it was an exit point. "

Shawn

 

[GNandGS]

Before anyone brings it up...

Many interviews with LHO's fellow marines talk about how bad a shot he was and if they were going to be shot at HE was they one they wanted - IE: "he sucked".

The thing is, LHO WAS a good shot, just maybe not to their standard. His second qualifying attempt (the lowest) as 191 was good enuf for marksman and meant that he could hit a 10-inch target eight times out of ten from 200 yards away.

____________ and __________

Interview with Posner:

The head wound. Everyone looks at the backward motion of the president's head and says, "That's got to mean the shot came from the front and shoved the head back."

When I first saw the Zapruder film, I thought that it was evidence of a shot from the front. ... I asked the experts, "What does that mean, that backwards head movement?" What they told me is, several things are happening. First, as the cortex of the brain is destroyed, a neuromuscular response shoots down the spine, sending a seizure through the body. The body's muscles twitch, with the large muscles in the back predominating.

Remember, Kennedy's wrapped into a back brace. It's wrapped right underneath his breast all the way down and wrapped around his legs. You can't tell from that seizure where he's going to move in the car. But then something happens. Out the right side of his head, an explosion takes place. On the enhanced Zapruder film, you can see a cloud, a red mist of brain and blood tissue moving forward. <snip>

Two things. As the president's brain is destroyed, he goes into a neuromuscular seizure. His body starts to stiffen up. <snip>

Whole thing here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/oswald/interviews/posner.html

 

[2quiktocare]

My thoughts are still, suppose Oswald had the only gun, and was a lone shooter, and was there to kill Kennedy. How did he have enough knowledge to get Secret Service info on the route that was held private until the last minute (Johnson suggested the whole motorcade thing), be employed at that location, and at the exact spot in the building he needed to be to accomplish his task? The shear logistics alone to complete this job was more than he could have done without some very inside information.

Mark

 

[88 CuttyClassic]

thats all fine and dandy but what about the doctors that worked on the president, who had their hands inside his blown up skull. They all say the pictures are faked!

 

[Vendor Defendor]

where is this digitally enhanced video? i would like to see it, i saw it once on the history channel, but i only saw it once, not enough for me to come up with my own conclusions.

then, i dont know if anyone else saw this, but it was on one those history channel shows, they a video of the motorcade as it was leaving, i think the air port...

a sercert service agent is jogging nesxt to the president, and agent in the car behind him, yells at him, and waves him back. the agent that was running next to him turns the guy that told him to back off and through his arms up, like he was saying, what, what did i do, and the other guy just kept waving him off.

then they said the motorcade was supposed to have motorcycles on each side of the president... guess who wasnt there?

then the president's limo was supposed to be in the middle of the motorcade, not in the front, like it was.

then the head of the secret servie was supposed to be sitting in the car with JFK, but he ended up being in there very last car...

there was some other stuff i wanted to say, but i cant remember it right now, maybe i will remember later and add it in...

 

[GNandGS]

The route was known... how did all those people get there to watch? bwahahahahaha

People! Yer looking for reasons to find another shooter - FINE! But fail to show how LHO could NOT have been the shooter. The Warren commission and the 2 subsequent investigations and now several "media" investigations have all shown how LHO could have done it.

Remember, the commissions gave a "likely" or probable scenario - lacking similar evidence for a second shooter kinda makes the second shooter moot.

Where is the proof we went to the moon? You cant prove it in this thread nor can you prove JFK facts in this case.

 

[2quiktocare]

The route was only known two days prior to the trip. It doesn't take long to fill a route the President is taking on a motorcade.


Mark

 

[GNandGS]

Given any conspiracy multiple shooter theory I suppose LHO wouldnt have to know much of anything to get a good postion... apparenty he could have picked the grassy knoll, the bridge, the sewer, the 4th floor or any other "theory" location.

I could use logical conclusion methods to use the multiple shooter theory to show how it didnt take much planning for LHO to be in the "right place". Did all the shooters know the "right place"?

Again, how does this show it wasnt possible? I can buy how he didnt work alone but proof of it is a little scarce! Sinc it IS possible to have made the shots he did from where he did it I'll stick to LHO until I see similar proof against another shooter.

Still think shots came from the front? I could argue the other way with this graphic clip (not for the kiddies!):
http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/images/headshotmotion.gif

LHO was one of the few in a decent spot to make a shot from any planned route as apparently Main St was always part of the equation. As for when it was known, details of the motorcade route was discussed in both The Dallas Morning News and Dallas Times Herald starting Tuesday, November 19th.

 

[2quiktocare]

LOL, you are so right Steve. Jack Ruby was just paying back the Dallas police for favors done for him. Hell, who would have thought any one would care what happened to Oswald anyway. He killed the president after all. lol


Mark