Anybody watch the Peter Jennings/ABCNEWS special on the JFK assassination?

[DonnieShort]

The government of that time had a rather shady hue to it to say the least given their handling of various situations including the way the FBI illegaly went after MLK. Because of things like that plus the secretive way the JFK assassination was sealed, I just have a hard time beliveing it was as simple as one man and one gun. There is something there they did not want out.

 

[turbot2496]

Hot damn its about time sombody brought up Jack Ruby. This guy was the kicker for me too when I used to buy into the conspiracy camp. Funny thing about Jack is he was a weird cat too. Do some reading on this guy if you care and have the time. He was a hot tempered club owner in Dallas. Funny thing about this guy is until studying a little about him, I thought he was some mob strongman because thats how all the theorists portrayed him. Really, in my opinion, he was just a typical guy who was extremly pissed about the assasination of the president and its effect on Jackie O. He was outraged. In addition, like Oswald, he got lucky and was in the right place at the right time, in fact he was at the right place at the right time no fewer than four times if you believe Posner's research. I feel being pissed and seeing how easy it would be to shoot Oswald if he had the chance again on the fourth occasion when they were bringing Oswald out Ruby had his gun with him this time and was able to get off a shot and kill him. Now if you don't buy this then you have to ask why else would Jack kill Oswald? The Overwhelming response is "To shut him up". Cool Ok. Now ask yourself "Who's gonna shut Jack up then" kind of a domino theory going here if you know what I mean. Also if you think that Jack did it because his family was threatened or anything else, well Oswald had family that could be threatened too, to shut him up if he was part of a conspiracy. If you study up on Jack you can come to the conclusion that it is believable that this hot tempered guy could get pissed enough to go down and shoot that sob that shot Jackie O's husband and save her the grief of having to see the bastard in court.(paraphrased somwhat this was actually the reason Ruby gave for killing Oswald). Nobody and no 'credible' witness has ever connected Ruby to Oswald although Ruby did own a club that Oswald may have freqeunted so it is possible they had seen each other before. Ruby got pissed and killed the killer when he had the chance. Not hard to believe, even his friends were not real suprised by this.

Now I'll try to tackle the rest of these

1.Dr. Cyril Wect. Guy for some reason doesn't buy it even though the forensic evidence is overwhelming. He points to alot of the hearsay and mystery stuff and neglects the actual evidence. I've heard him speak and he very rarely cover the actual foresic stuff and speaks more of witnesses and grassy knolls. I wish he would stick to the actual research or maybe even do a little himself. All the money and book deals and interviews are on the conspiracy side though. If he'd spend more time trying to be objective and looking at things from a neutral standpoint and coming up with a conclusion instead of trying to disprove he would be more credible.

2. Why did Oswald recycle the gun?... Are you serious. Dude you just fired off 3 shots in rapid succession, I can definatly believe you could recycle the bolt on an empty chamber after this. I've even seen them do this in movies LOL. What is so unbelievable about that. Go fire some rounds yourself in fast succession like that and I'm sure you'll recycle the the bolt on an empty chamber once or twice yourself. Typical conspriracy stuff, reading way to much into something very simple.

3. Motorcade Route. GNandGS already explained this pretty good but let me add that I believe that Oswald like everyone else read the paper and knew the motorcade might be coming by and like Ruby took the gun to work that day hopeing he would get lucky and get a shot. Unfortunatly he did.

4. Shear logistics was impossible for Oswald..... Taking a gun to work and hoping you get a shot at the President from one of the windows where you work???? Not much logistics here, just a guy that got lucky or unlucky for us. I mean whats there to it. Set up your little place to shoot in case he comes by and then work as usual and then when everybody starts yelling come outside the presidents motorcade is gonna be coming this way....you say yeehaa run upstairs while everyone else is going outside, and shoot him and then sneak out the back. Not very complicated.

5. Back to the 34 point match.... Well the fingerprint in the archive was really only about a 1/2 a print in the actual file. Some people have digitally tried to recreate the rest of it. Even though the individual on the show claims a 34 point match most experts will only concede a 14 point match off of the actual print. In addition as said before there are points that don't match. Truthfully the print would never hold up in any court of law and it is ludicrous to hinge and entire LBJ conspiracy on one print that was not even a very good one. In addition lets say that Mac Wallace was the shooter and killed the president in front of an Oswald who really didn't wanna do it.(this is what the theorist claim and build to from the print evidence) Why not kill Oswald there and make it look like a suicide. We also have evidence that Oswald was a good marksman but we have no such evidence about Mac. Oswalds prints on the gun but not Macs. If gun was wiped off there would be no prints. We do have one witness that identifys Mac in the building but this guys story has a ton of holes in it and his credibility does not hold up. Not one employee can place Mac in the building. Also if Oswald feels so bad about the shooting of the president why does he latter shoot Officer Tippett in cold blood. Not really the actions of a Patsy. The whole Mac Wallace angle just doensn't hold up.

6. Problems with the rifle and ability to make the shots... experts have duplicated the shots numerous times, was very possible... reading into the order of the shots or anything is silly in my opinion

7. Bullet didn't follow path into wrist ... yeah it did, it bounced off a rib and turned down and hit his wrist. This has been proven to my satisfaction and they showed the x-rays of the rib where it bounced off.

8. Doctors that did autopsy... It is widely agreed that these guys were incompetent and really botched it up. I am not suprised at all they would claim that the pictures are fake. Kinda silly though since it sounds like its the only thing they sorta did right. Also not all the doctors have sold out. There are just as many that uphold that the pictures are genuine.

9. Vendor defendor says the driver and motorcycle cops and secret service where in on it..... Well awhile back one of the researchers made a list of everyone who would have been in on it to match most of the conspiracy theories and the list was staggering. A ton of people would have had to have been involved. Hell if you've got that many people ready to kill the President why not just put a bomb on his plane and call it a day. Tons of better ways to pull this off if you've got that many people ready to cover this up. Why even mess with Oswald??

Anyway intersting discussion on this and I realize that nothing can change the mind of a die hard conspiracy addict but I hope maybe this helps somebody on the fence like I was at one time. The key is (I know I am repeating myself) you have to look at ALL the evidence not just one little thing. Thats the job the WC had to do. They didn't have the luxurory of just talking to the people who heard shots from the grassy knoll. They had to interview the other 90 percent that heard shots from the depository also. They had to interview everybody and then make their conclusions. Conspiracy theorists don't have to do this. They just find the people who will say what they want to say and edit the interview to get their point accross. Posner shares many of these instances in his book. Its really pretty humerous to read the full statements of some of these expert witnessess.

 

[2quiktocare]

This is when the route was set and approved by Special agent Sorrel, who was in charge of securing a proper route to the business luncheon Kennedy was to speak at:

"After the selection of the Trade Mart as the luncheon site, Lawson and Sorrels met with Dallas Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry, Assistant Chief Charles Batchelor, Deputy Chief N. T. Fisher, and several other command officers to discuss details of the motorcade and possible routes. The route was further reviewed by Lawson and Sorrels with Assistant Chief Batchelor and members of the local host committee on November 15. The police officials agreed that the route recommended by Sorrels was the proper one and did not express a belief that any other route might be better. On November 18, Sorrels and Lawson drove over the selected route with Batchelor and other police officers, verifying that it could be traversed within 45 minutes. Representatives of the local host committee and the White House staff were advised by the Secret Service of the actual route on the afternoon of November 18."

I have tried to ascertain the exact dates of Oswald being employed by the book depository and haven't found them yet, but the time span of 3 days is a not enough to gain employment and set up this whole thing.
I do not consider myself a conspiracy nut under any situation, rather just very curious as to all the empty and misleading things that this whole ordeal has continued to present.
The route was first presented in early Nov. '63 and then printed in the Dallas newspapers 3 days before the motorcade. By that after noon the papers had to blank out the route because it was found the trip could not be made through the original path due to directional barriers on main street.
Were we to totally believe the lone gunman theory, we would have to have more leaps of faith than if we accepted a multilevel theory of conspiracy. There is more true evidence of that than of a lone, crazy individual that put all this together within a 3 day period.

 

[88 CuttyClassic]

Originally posted by turbot2496



2. Why did Oswald recycle the gun?... Are you serious. Dude you just fired off 3 shots in rapid succession, I can definatly believe you could recycle the bolt on an empty chamber after this. I've even seen them do this in movies LOL. What is so unbelievable about that. Go fire some rounds yourself in fast succession like that and I'm sure you'll recycle the the bolt on an empty chamber once or twice yourself. Typical conspriracy stuff, reading way to much into something very simple.




.

well first i'll addrees the motocade route. It was never supposed to make the turn on houston becasue of the angle of the turn at elm. You LHO people don't wanna hear anything but the evidence that relates to the shooting. They broke multipule secret service rules. Also why would LHO not take the shot when the limo was comming down houston, a much better shot!! he could have shot him right in the face and not put anyone else in harms way.

the gun: you missed my point, there were bullets in the gun, just none in the chamber. So that rules out that the gun was recycled a third time cause there would have been one in the chamber and the three shell casing were bogus.

Ruby: yep, everyone is a lone nut... come on. Are people really that naieve to believe that?? They all did their job, Oswald took the fall, then he probably tried to spill the beans and ruby had to make sure he would never talk. Ruby shot him like a pro, not someone that was trying to exact revenge. He put the gun in his belly and pointed up to take out all of oswalds major organs.

You really have to be a moron not to see this REAKS of conspiricy. You don't have to be very educated to see, it common sense!! I really feel bad that people are so brainwashed in this country that they will ignore evidence and believe everything our country tells them. I'm sure it was complete coincidence that LBJ did the exact opposite of what JFK was doing, tryin to get out of vietnam. they don't always agree but P's and VP's are usually on the same page. I hope i offended everyone that thinks oswald did it. Its just insane to believe that he acted alone or that he acted at all based on evidence and witnesses. Is every single witness not credible. Every doctor from parkland, funeral directors, former secret service men and the list goes on and on. How are people still unwhilling to believe outside testimony. people are putting their lives on the line to tell the truth, not everyone is tryin to sell a book and get famous. We may never know what really happened, hopefully heaven has a place to find unanswered questions like this. Jfk would have dies in vain if we didn't still search for the truth. I wish we could just dig him up and see that the back of his head was blown off contrary to photos from the autopsy. but i bet his body isn;t where they say it is. Why did they dump the casket he was transported in 25 miles off the coast of maryland? I bet he was in it! If there was no other evidence besides the balistics it would be easier to take what the warren commision as fact but its not even close. I hope this thread is still alive in 2038 so i along with all the other people that think there were more shooters can say i told you so.

 

[Joe 1320]

One point that I haven't heard addressed in years...... Jackie was seen climbing out onto the back of the limo. Why? In an interview with her, she stated that part the back of her husbands head had been blown off and backward onto the rear trunk area of the limo. She climbed out to retrieve what had been blown off. (gross!) According to the laws of physics, that shot would have had to come from the front.

 

[GNandGS]

If you look at the slowmo pic/vid I posted earlier you will see his head go FORWARD slightly first. No matter tho, and I'll repeat this:

They took the same model gun with the same ammunition and shot at a REAL human skull encased in ballistics jell and the head came back toward the gun while debris went everywhere.

This sort of test has been done over and over.

1. Secret service is always annoyed with not getting their way. Then, before, and now.

2. Who cares what the better shot is: If there were so many in on it why didnt THEY take the "better shot".

3. None of the "other shooters" could account for the wounds made and where they were made.

4. One of the officers on scene in the book depo even today is kinda pissed about the total lack of crime scene control - he thinks there is more than one shooter but doesnt offer the bullet in the chamber thing as proof of it.

5. Lone nuts. Happens a lot. Watch COPS lately? How many days of planning did it take to shoot Reagan? LOL LESS THAN LHO DID!!!

6. Thanks for calling me names... moron? Using your own litmus test I think you qualify. "... believe everything our country tells them"... as apposed to who? If any of your sources include the guy claiming there were six shooters that day, or that one of them was in the sewer I'll pass on you as a secondary source.

7. Credible witnesses. 2% of witnesses that exclude the book depo say it came from the knoll.... gotta go with the odds here. The 90% number used earlier is close to the number of witnesses that claim it came from the depo! You can exclude witnesses by the way that cant prove they were there.

8. Warren commission was only one of 3 and official "commissions" but there have been many well funded media drivin investigations into this (some lately). If I can find at least as many arguments for how it IS possible for LHO as there is for NOT being LHO, how can *I* be the moron.

Thanks, the fun is now gone!

Oct 14/15 was the hire date at depo btw....

 

[86brick]

No need for name calling in a friendly debate/argument...... I personally think the bottom line is we may never know the truth and there seems to be good points made by both sides..... There are a LOT of good opinions/ideas/theories out there about what may have happened (conspiracy) but it seems like there are little or no FACTS!

Personally I believe there was some sort of conspiracy, but the fact that I (or anyone for that matter) can't prove it is a clear indication that I (along with others) could be wrong!

I tell you this much if there honestly was no conspiracy this was a VERY strange turn of events!!!!!!

 

[GNandGS]

Lt. J.C. Day in a report, dated 11/22/63 and signed by him, mentions one live round in the barrel, three spent hulls, and and notes that "THE CLIP IS STAMPED SMI 952." This is the notation on the clip that resides to this day in the National Archives in College Park, Maryland

 

[Vendor Defendor]

man, if i was Jackie, i wouldnt be worried about my husbands head on the trunk, i would be worried about getting the f**k out of there...

 

[turbot2496]

Well the name calling has started so I'll have to quit.

Usually, when the name calling starts, that means that someone is frustrated because they can't prove their point so they resort to just calling the other party stupid. Pretty much ends a debate. Well I don't think any of us are stupid here and we have all offered good points and arguments and explanations. The poster who said we will probably never know for absolute sure is probably accurate. These are all opinions based on evidence either real or percieved. It all depends on who you think is credible and who you want to believe and your own feelings. This plot in my opinion if you believe the lone gunman theory is not that complicated. I don't know why it is so hard to believe that Ruby would go down and shoot Oswald in cold blood for payback for the death of one of our most beloved presidents either. Alot of americans reacted with violence towards arab americans after 9-11. Several were killed in a supposed retaliation by other nutty americans. I gurantee there were alot of americans at the time, that if they could have got as close to Oswald as Ruby was able to get to him, they would have shot him also. It is not really that incredible and does fit with Ruby's profile. As for shooting Kennedy from the front coming down the street.... this would not be wise. All Secret service agents facing foward would see where the shots came from and been able to easily return fire. The wise move is to shoot from the rear towards the backs of the secret service traveling with the president. Also to all those who claim shots where fired from the front(grassy knoll was from the side) how come none of the secret service people saw anybody firing shots. Should have if they were right in front of them. Oh but I forgot the secret service was in on it too. Along with the doctors, the drivers, the police department, the warren commission, 90% of the witnesses on the scene who saw no other shooters other than Oswald in the book depository and heard only three shots, the fbi, LBJ, the mob, Oswald, Oswalds family, all of Oswalds friends and people that knew him, Jack Ruby, his family and the people that knew him, and a cast of hundreds of others. Oh, also don't forget God because he was in on this too. If it would have rained that day they would have had to put the top on the car and the whole huge conspiracy would have gone down the drain. Once again, I ask why mess with Oswald when you got all these guys working with ya. Hell poison his coffee and call it a day. Its been fun guys and a very intellegent discussion now back to the buick stuff. LOL

 

[cwmccray]

Kennedy would have died anyway!!!!

JFK had a rare disease (bone) that kept him in pain. He was on morphine and other strong drugs that would put a horse on his azz. I heard about this in a medical journal four years ago. When he was in the service, they discovered that JFK barely could pass his physical, but he did (Thank Joe "Rum Runner" Kennedy). I believe that FBI and LBJ did it. LHO could not of hit a Rhino with the .303 gun. There are pix of JFK on autopsy.com. Half of his rear skull is GONE... Frontal shot with a .100-.150 grain shot for accuracy...(Governmental / miltary sharpshooter....) LHO was a government kite that Ruby cut.

The Warren Commission was a JOKE.... I do believe it will come out eventually, because the MAJIC BULLIT theory in not buyable now...

 

[GNandGS]

I do just have to ask this... did you read through these posts with an open mind?

Im still struggling with a few things but oddly the "magic" part of that shot isnt one of them. As much as it seems impossible from the rear, its even tougher from the front.

Just a few posts ago, I gave info about (and a link?) to why the magic bullet shot isnt magic at all once you know how the seating was etc.

I agree... if it really had to make all those turns it might indeed be magic... but it didnt. You have to remember, just like the autopsy diagram, the bullet path from the warren report was, uh, incorrect. Like I said earlier I think that level of sloppyness was the order of the day... really cant be compared to todays "CSI" level of investigation and documentation (fear the lawyers!).

Try this one: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sbt.htm

Shawn