Anyone know how to use a FlexHone aka 'Dingleberry' hone?

[joe_schindler]

In the early 1980’s; Ford had a run of 300 CID 6 cylinder engines that burned oil from one cylinder after the first 500 miles. The fix; pull the engine; take it completely apart; bore the one cylinder and fit a new piston; then put it back together. All of this for an engine that only had to last another 11,000 miles before the warranty was up.

So; how long do you want this one to last?

 

[FlaBoy]

You list your occupation as a "nuclear pharmacy technician" in your public profile yet you can't afford $30 or $40 for a 3-stone flat hone?

With a title like that I would think you are earning at least $12 per hour. Please forgive me if you have fallen on hard times or are unemployed. If so, you need to do something about it like get a job or a second job.

If you can borrow a ball hone why can't you borrow or rent a 3-stone hone and do the job correctly?

If you detonated it enough to do piston damage, you had better check the top half of all of your rod bearings because they are probably hammered, right BISON? If your rod bearings are beat up you need to stop right here and re-think the whole project.

Wow, I need to update my profile, I haven't worked at Cardinal's Nuc. Pharmacy in 3 years or so I went back to school and just finished my Master's degree in Mech. Engineering. Currently I am "semi employed" doing research and post-grad work at the university, contemplating continuing on for my doctorate, or going to work in industry for a few years before going for the PhD. I've been looking for work, but as I'm sure many of you have found out, its a tough job market out there. I could afford to buy a hone if I need to, but if i can borrow one, it seems like a waste of money, especially while I'm on such a restricted budget (i've been responsible and have savings, but want to keep them lasting as long as possible).

the more I've read/heard I was wrong by saying the knock sensor caused the problem. It was pointed out that since only the one piston was damaged it was likely something else. It wouldn't surprise me if that injector was clogged/damaged, when I pulled the old ones, they were in sorry shape. I already have a brand new set ready to install (and new harness), so if that was the problem, hopefully its been solved. Either way I'm sure having no ability to pull timing in the presence of detonation didn't help the situation. I know fuel pressure was good (43 psi initial, tracks pound for pound with boost), and I am running factory boost levels (verified by an aftermarket boost gauge, not the stock POS).

When I pulled the old piston out yesterday, i looked at the bearings pretty closely, they dont show any unusual wear/damage. No serious scratches, no bits of metal embedded, no copper showing. The rod journal on the crank looks the same, in real good shape. If that bearing had looked bad I would have opened all the other rod ends to check theirs, but since this one seemed in good shape I am hoping/assuming the other ones are too. I'd rather not crack open the other rod ends if I don't have to... I figure the more things I take apart, the more chances of me screwing something up putting it back together

 

[bison]

Wow, I need to update my profile, I haven't worked at Cardinal's Nuc. Pharmacy in 3 years or so I went back to school and just finished my Master's degree in Mech. Engineering. Currently I am "semi employed" doing research and post-grad work at the university, contemplating continuing on for my doctorate, or going to work in industry for a few years before going for the PhD. I've been looking for work, but as I'm sure many of you have found out, its a tough job market out there. I could afford to buy a hone if I need to, but if i can borrow one, it seems like a waste of money, especially while I'm on such a restricted budget (i've been responsible and have savings, but want to keep them lasting as long as possible).

the more I've read/heard I was wrong by saying the knock sensor caused the problem. It was pointed out that since only the one piston was damaged it was likely something else. It wouldn't surprise me if that injector was clogged/damaged, when I pulled the old ones, they were in sorry shape. I already have a brand new set ready to install (and new harness), so if that was the problem, hopefully its been solved. Either way I'm sure having no ability to pull timing in the presence of detonation didn't help the situation. I know fuel pressure was good (43 psi initial, tracks pound for pound with boost), and I am running factory boost levels (verified by an aftermarket boost gauge, not the stock POS).

When I pulled the old piston out yesterday, i looked at the bearings pretty closely, they dont show any unusual wear/damage. No serious scratches, no bits of metal embedded, no copper showing. The rod journal on the crank looks the same, in real good shape. If that bearing had looked bad I would have opened all the other rod ends to check theirs, but since this one seemed in good shape I am hoping/assuming the other ones are too. I'd rather not crack open the other rod ends if I don't have to... I figure the more things I take apart, the more chances of me screwing something up putting it back together

If you were at the stock boost levels and that happened you need to look for more than a knock sensor problem. Id check the rod bearings too

 

[BlackBandit]

Ok. I believe there's really only one right way to do an engine and that's to do everything the best way possible. I know there are a million opinions about whats the best for certain things but regardless of what formula you use if you're not going all out your just making a decision about what's good enough for you or your application. (I know there's some holes in that statement but that's the gist of it.) That's fine because not everyone has 10 grand to drop on an engine with all the top of the line trick stuff. Because of that and the fact the the internal combustion engine is a deceivingly durable beast, I believe that if you're realistic in your expectations you can get away with doing some stuff that might not be considered by some to be acceptable. That said you need to check all of your bearings. The last time I checked you could buy a set of rod AND main bearings for well under $100. That's to cheap not to do it and if you don't feel like pulling caps is in your range of abilities you probably shouldn't be inside your engine without someone to help you. I mean, it's part of the job you're all ready trying to do so if you aren't comfortable doing it......see what I mean? Check/replace the bearings.

 

[reed0380]

O.K., now that I have seen pictures of your cylinder bore, there are linear scratches in a vertical direction along the cylinder wall from the six o'clock position to the seven o'clock position. Especially deep where the piston is melted enough to expose the top piston ring. These scratches will be a leak path for compression. No amount of honing will eliminate these scratches.

If the ball hone is your only alternative, try it first on a junk block to see what kind of cross-hatch pattern it will produce. Most automotive machine shops have junk blocks sitting around waiting for the scrap heap.

The game plan at this point is to hone to "bust the glaze" and realize that you will have to live with the scratches. Engine will probably run all right with a replacement piston and new rings but compression numbers may be lower. Put it together, run it and hope for the best. What do you have to lose?

 

[joe_schindler]

I think that the idea of a hone being some kind of magic wand to wave over an engine is hard to drop. It doesn’t matter if you use a ball or flat stone hone or glaze breaker on this engine. The cylinders are not only tapered; but damaged.

What does a hone (the 3 and 4 stone glaze breakers are not hones; that’s just the common name) or glaze breaker (they are not the same thing) actually do? Why do you use it?

The answer is not so that the cylinder is nice and shiny. Once the head is back on; you’ll never see it; till you pull the head back off.

Do you need to use it? Why do you think so? Are you going to check the results? What is the hardness of the “stones” on your brush? What finish will it leave? Is that what the ring manufacturer requires; or just something that sounds like a good idea?

Something no one has even bothered to ask is; what finish does the new set of rings require? The next question; will it matter? For several reasons; the answer to that is; no.

Next question; did you use a ridge reamer? If not; new rings, piston, and bearings will probably result in a cracked piston or broken top ring.


Just because you are putting a portion of this engine back to what appears to be “spec” doesn’t mean that you have effected a repair. You really don’t know how far out of spec you are right now to have a reference point to work from.

The three big questions here are:

Will a hone fix the cylinder? No.

Will a hone help the rings to seat? Probably not. See what your ring manufacturer says. Using a hone may actually make things worse.

Will this work when it’s back together? There’s a chance. You haven’t measured anything other than with ladies stockings and your fingernail; so it’s hard to know how bad things really are. If you put it back together with new parts that contact the cylinder ridge or the rings are tight at the bottom of the stroke; it won’t work for long.


I’d love to tell you to shine up the cylinder and pop a piston in the hole and get going. It probably works like that at the lawnmower shop; but if a lawnmower throws a rod; it probably cost less to replace the whole mower than a set of gaskets for your car.

 

[FlaBoy]

Joe,

I appreciate your input, and I know you are trying to help me, so thank you for that, i mean that sincerely.

The problem is though that at this point I have only a few options:

1- Do nothing, leave my car as it is, with a half-disassembled motor.

2- Put everything back together with the original parts: cylinder bore as-is, with the burned up piston and old rings and old bearings. This would leave me in the exact same situation as before minus the cost of new gaskets, etc.

3- Put in a used stock piston with new rings and bearings. My neighbor owns and operates a machine shop in town, as well as an engine and chassis building company favored by the local circle-track guys (not saying he's an expert on this stuff, but obviously knows a fair bit) and after looking at the cylinder and piston, he said this would probably work decently for a while. It was he who confirmed that I would need to de-glaze the bore to give the rings a chance at seating properly.

Option 1 is out, as this would leave me with no car (GN is my daily driver) and I am pushing things with friends/family as it is by bumming rides when i can to the parts store, school/work, etc.

Option 2 seems like a stupid idea... I already have everything apart, putting it back together without attempting to do something about the problem would be foolish.

Option 3 may not be the best way to fix it, and may not be a permanent solution, but its the best option i have. I flat out CANNOT afford to pull the motor and have it professionally checked and machined. If doing this gets me another few thousand miles out of it, then thats better than what I have now (a car that I will get zero miles out of). Putting a "band-aid" on the problem is better than doing nothing and not having a car.

Again, i honestly do appreciate your input, and the help you are trying to give. If you have any suggestions on how I CAN get the car back up and running, I would love to hear it. All you have written so far is to say that what I am doing will not work, or to shoot holes in my plans. If you have an alternative solution please tell me. If theres a better way to go about it within the time/money limitations I have, please let me know, I want to do the best I can to get the car running as best IT can. You seem very knowledgeable, and any suggestions you have would be appreciated.

 

[joe_schindler]

Joe,

I appreciate your input, and I know you are trying to help me, so thank you for that, i mean that sincerely.

So; let’s work with a variant on option 3:

3- Put in a used stock piston with new rings and bearings. My neighbor owns and operates a machine shop in town, as well as an engine and chassis building company favored by the local circle-track guys (not saying he's an expert on this stuff, but obviously knows a fair bit) and after looking at the cylinder and piston, he said this would probably work decently for a while. It was he who confirmed that I would need to de-glaze the bore to give the rings a chance at seating properly.

Option 3 may not be the best way to fix it, and may not be a permanent solution, but its the best option i have. I flat out CANNOT afford to pull the motor and have it professionally checked and machined. If doing this gets me another few thousand miles out of it, then thats better than what I have now (a car that I will get zero miles out of). Putting a "band-aid" on the problem is better than doing nothing and not having a car.

“Breaking the Glaze” is something you hear a lot about; and still read a lot about in the “Hot Rod” engine building books. Find a machine shop that hates Hot Rod magazine. Most modern rings don’t require a rough surface to seat anymore. The ball hone will do nothing to help your cylinder. ABSOLUTELY nothing. A stone hone won’t help much more. Neither is going to create the proper surface for the new rings. So; why do it.

You MUST remove the ridge at the top of the cylinder; and do a good job of it. the ridge won’t be concentric (it will be thicker on one side; left, right; or top or bottom); so you may have to cut more on one side than the other; just don’t cut further down (towards the crank )on one side than the other. Just get the ridge out; then stop.

If you really feel you must do something to the cylinder; stuff some rags to the bottom; and lightly go around it with some 600 grit wet-or-dry paper and some ATF or 30w oil. The rings won’t go all the way to the bottom of the cylinder; so don’t mess with that area. Clean everything up before installing the piston.

Install the new rings on the cleaned up (get all the crap out of the ring grooves) piston and rod. Make sure you rig some dowels so the rod doesn’t hit the crank; and best if you have another person at the bottom. You’ll need a $10 ring compressor to make this a 1 minute job rather than a 2 hour job.

While you’re under the car; it would be a good time to change out all of the bearings; regardless of what they look like as you don’t know the clearances. You could get some Plastigauge and check them to see if you need undersize (I think you can still get 0.001 and 0.002 under rod and main bearings. You can even get 3 standard and 3 0.001 rod sets and make a 0.0005 set by using one of each on each rod. Just remember how hard it was to get the pan off.

Again, i honestly do appreciate your input, and the help you are trying to give. If you have any suggestions on how I CAN get the car back up and running, I would love to hear it. All you have written so far is to say that what I am doing will not work, or to shoot holes in my plans. If you have an alternative solution please tell me. If theres a better way to go about it within the time/money limitations I have, please let me know, I want to do the best I can to get the car running as best IT can. You seem very knowledgeable, and any suggestions you have would be appreciated.

I an old guy; and it’s our job to tell people what won’t work.

You are understanding that any money you put into a less than correct engine is not well spent. You have to decide how much per mile you are willing to spend on this car. I’m just guessing; but you’ll have at least $200 in gaskets and other parts to do this job. Another $100 for bearings.

If you put in your $200 and then broke the new piston on the ridge; your $/mile would be pretty high. The more you spend/the better the engine; the more you’ll get for your money.

Sometimes the answer with time/money limitations is; you can’t do it.

 

[joe_schindler]

When you ream the ridge; use tape to hold a rag in place at the bottom of the cylinder (so the rag forms a cup shape) so that all the cuttings fall into the rag and you can recover them.