I'm thinking of converting to a manual brake set up. I have purchased the G body rear brake upgrade with the S 10 wheel cylinders. I'm just wondering if the front brakes will need any modifications to be effective. Just wanting to hear from other guys that have done it already and get some feed back.
Anyone running manual brakes
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RmvBfrFlght
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Running '98-'02 Camaro brakes on all four corners. Had to go with a 7/8" M/C bore and good street pads. Even at that I'm looking into getting pads that have an even higher coefficient of friction.
A quick look at a brake calculator you will need to do the same. Otherwise the braking will be less then what you currently have in the front.
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A quick look at a brake calculator you will need to do the same. Otherwise the braking will be less then what you currently have in the front.
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RmvBfrFlght
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For manual brakes it is the opposite. With a 1-1/8" bore M/C you won't be able to stop the car. Hence the need for a 7/8" bore M/C, more line pressure at the same pedal pressure.
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WhiteTType
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RmvBfrFlght is exactly right. It's a balancing act. A larger bore will have less line pressure and less pedal travel. A smaller bore will have more line pressure, but more pedal travel.
We went to a manual brake setup when we put the V8 in the car. Took 3 different bore master cylinders to get it right for 4 piston Wilwood disk brakes all the way around. The first had a 1 1/16" bore and the pedal was rock hard, hardly any pedal travel and very little stopping power. It's amazing how a small change in bore size will change the characteristics of the brakes as we ended up with a 1" bore. Not as strong as power brakes, but enough to stop 3700 lbs going 156 MPH.
We went to a manual brake setup when we put the V8 in the car. Took 3 different bore master cylinders to get it right for 4 piston Wilwood disk brakes all the way around. The first had a 1 1/16" bore and the pedal was rock hard, hardly any pedal travel and very little stopping power. It's amazing how a small change in bore size will change the characteristics of the brakes as we ended up with a 1" bore. Not as strong as power brakes, but enough to stop 3700 lbs going 156 MPH.
RmvBfrFlght
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I used this one:
DORMAN M39736 Master Cylinder 7/8"
Note that it is a Mopar M/C and is not a bolt in. It is aluminum with both ports being 3/8" flare.
For a bolt in can try this one:
'80 Malibu 229 v6 manual: DORMAN Part # M39166 7/8" bore
Primary Outlet: 9/16 x 18
Secondary Outlet: 1/2 x 20
It is likely steel. Be sure to get the correct brake pedal.
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DORMAN M39736 Master Cylinder 7/8"
Note that it is a Mopar M/C and is not a bolt in. It is aluminum with both ports being 3/8" flare.
For a bolt in can try this one:
'80 Malibu 229 v6 manual: DORMAN Part # M39166 7/8" bore
Primary Outlet: 9/16 x 18
Secondary Outlet: 1/2 x 20
It is likely steel. Be sure to get the correct brake pedal.
RemoveBeforeFlight
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Pa racing has a setup with a billet mounting bracket
forcefed3.8's
Buckeye Bullet
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I used the mopar 7/8" with Wilwood fronts and stock rear drums. Stopped great, wouldn't hold as much as the Hydroboost. If I had to do it again, I would use an adjustable proportioning valve, and give the rears some more pressure. I am switching to dual caliper rear discs this winter with the large 1 1/16" Mopar master cylinder. Will probably go with an adjustable proportioning valve.
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That's what I've been running. The 7/8 mopar with rear drums. I'm switching to discs this winter on the rear.
Brake pedal mounting position is critical.
Use the formula to calculate where to mount the rod.
Brake pedal mounting position is critical.
Use the formula to calculate where to mount the rod.
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The formula came with my aerospace brakes. I'll see if I can dig it up. I used the power master pedal, drilled it and used a shoulder bolt to mount the rod.
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And if you order the PA kit, request a 7/8 master cylinder. They don't show it on site.
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Ask him if he will sell you the plate and rod. Then get mc somewhere else.
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Check trz also.
malibudave1978
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When dealing with manual brakes, a smaller bore master cylinder is almost always better. For stock size, g-body, front calipers, a 7/8” bore is the maximum bore size you want to get.
The PA Racing, TNT, or TRZ style billet adapter plate, you cannot use a stock G-body master cylinder because the billet adapter plate corrects the angle of the firewall and uses a Mopar master cylinder bolt pattern. The TNT (http://www.tntraceshop.com/1978-1988_G-body_170100-170101-170102.html) or TRZ (http://trzmotorsports.com/wp2/?product=master-cylinder-adapter-plate) style billet adapter looks to be engineered after the stock power master firewall mounting bracket, which can also be used to convert to manual brakes. I don’t know what master cylinder bolt pattern is on the power master bracket, but people have used this bracket in the past to do manual brake swaps. If using a power master brake pedal assembly, the stud on the brake pedal for the pushrod is in the correct location to use the TNT or TRZ style billet adapter plate and power master bracket. The pedal ratio using the stock GN pedal is about 5.5 to 1. If using a vacuum assisted pedal, a hole will have to be drilled midway between the vacuum boosted stud and the stock manual brake stud mounting hole. The manual brake mounting hole in the vacuum assisted pedal gives a better 6 to 1 pedal ratio. Running a 7/8” bore master cylinder with these types of brackets, it will reduce pedal effort and increase the cars braking ability.
The Wilwood master cylinders have mounting provisions for both GM and Mopar and can be used with the TRZ style billet adapter plate. The Wilwood master cylinders also come with adapters fittings to use your stock brake lines. The Wilwood master cylinder is over $200, but is a nice piece.
If you want a lower cost alternative, an Aluminum master cylinder from a 1993 Dodge Shadow can be used. Usually the NEW master cylinder sold at the auto parts store are 7/8” bore sizes, but these cars came with 21mm, 7/8 inch, and 24mm bore sizes from the factory. Have the auto part store counter person measure the bore diameter before you buy. 7/8” (0.875”) and 21mm (0.826”) bores are fine to be used with stock size, g-body front calipers. If you go with a 1993 Dodge Shadow master cylinder, adapters will need to be used to mate to your stock brake lines or new 3/8-24 inch lines will need to be used to plum down to your proportioning valve.
Brake line adapters are the easiest to do, but the hardest to find and purchase. You can purchase the adapters from Classic Performance. The adapters Part number is MC-SF at www.classicperform.com.
Most any rebuilt master cylinders (Ford, GM, Mopar) are hit or miss in quality. I always recommend buying new (NON clearance) because having to bench bleed another master cylinder and rebleed the entire brake system is always a pain.
Since some g-body cars were engineered with manual brakes from the factory, you can also go that route. I am running manual brakes on my 1980 El Camino, which came with vacuum assisted brakes. A stock, vacuum assisted pedal has provisions for manual brakes and uses a better 6 to 1 pedal ratio for the manual brakes. www.manualbrakes.com has a system that uses the stock, g-body manual brake setup and is, pretty much, a bolt in. There is no drilling when using a more common vacuum assisted pedal, but you might have to clearance the firewall to clear the pushrod retention cup. The www.manualbrakes.com system can use both g-body master cylinder and Mopar style master cylinders, but it cannot use Wilwood master cylinders this because this manual brake system retains the stock angle of the firewall. Because of the design of the Wilwood master cylinder, the fluid will gravitate to the back reservoir and empty the front reservoir. A 1993 Dodge Shadow master cylinder can be used for this manual brake system also along with a G-body manual brake master cylinder.
For brake pads, you want to run a pad with a colder “bite”, unless you are running an autocross event. Auto parts store EE rates pads will give a colder bite than FF rated pads. EE rated pads are usually the lower priced, semi metallic pads. EE pads require less heat to work than a FF rated pad, but there friction properties are not as good as an FF rated pad when the designed temperatures are exceeded. The rating should be somewhere printed on the pad when you buy from the auto parts store. Most aftermarket (Wilwood, EBC, Hawk, etc.) pads require more heat, but they may have a pad that is designed to work better when colder for drag racing purposes.
The PA Racing, TNT, or TRZ style billet adapter plate, you cannot use a stock G-body master cylinder because the billet adapter plate corrects the angle of the firewall and uses a Mopar master cylinder bolt pattern. The TNT (http://www.tntraceshop.com/1978-1988_G-body_170100-170101-170102.html) or TRZ (http://trzmotorsports.com/wp2/?product=master-cylinder-adapter-plate) style billet adapter looks to be engineered after the stock power master firewall mounting bracket, which can also be used to convert to manual brakes. I don’t know what master cylinder bolt pattern is on the power master bracket, but people have used this bracket in the past to do manual brake swaps. If using a power master brake pedal assembly, the stud on the brake pedal for the pushrod is in the correct location to use the TNT or TRZ style billet adapter plate and power master bracket. The pedal ratio using the stock GN pedal is about 5.5 to 1. If using a vacuum assisted pedal, a hole will have to be drilled midway between the vacuum boosted stud and the stock manual brake stud mounting hole. The manual brake mounting hole in the vacuum assisted pedal gives a better 6 to 1 pedal ratio. Running a 7/8” bore master cylinder with these types of brackets, it will reduce pedal effort and increase the cars braking ability.
The Wilwood master cylinders have mounting provisions for both GM and Mopar and can be used with the TRZ style billet adapter plate. The Wilwood master cylinders also come with adapters fittings to use your stock brake lines. The Wilwood master cylinder is over $200, but is a nice piece.
If you want a lower cost alternative, an Aluminum master cylinder from a 1993 Dodge Shadow can be used. Usually the NEW master cylinder sold at the auto parts store are 7/8” bore sizes, but these cars came with 21mm, 7/8 inch, and 24mm bore sizes from the factory. Have the auto part store counter person measure the bore diameter before you buy. 7/8” (0.875”) and 21mm (0.826”) bores are fine to be used with stock size, g-body front calipers. If you go with a 1993 Dodge Shadow master cylinder, adapters will need to be used to mate to your stock brake lines or new 3/8-24 inch lines will need to be used to plum down to your proportioning valve.
Brake line adapters are the easiest to do, but the hardest to find and purchase. You can purchase the adapters from Classic Performance. The adapters Part number is MC-SF at www.classicperform.com.
Most any rebuilt master cylinders (Ford, GM, Mopar) are hit or miss in quality. I always recommend buying new (NON clearance) because having to bench bleed another master cylinder and rebleed the entire brake system is always a pain.
Since some g-body cars were engineered with manual brakes from the factory, you can also go that route. I am running manual brakes on my 1980 El Camino, which came with vacuum assisted brakes. A stock, vacuum assisted pedal has provisions for manual brakes and uses a better 6 to 1 pedal ratio for the manual brakes. www.manualbrakes.com has a system that uses the stock, g-body manual brake setup and is, pretty much, a bolt in. There is no drilling when using a more common vacuum assisted pedal, but you might have to clearance the firewall to clear the pushrod retention cup. The www.manualbrakes.com system can use both g-body master cylinder and Mopar style master cylinders, but it cannot use Wilwood master cylinders this because this manual brake system retains the stock angle of the firewall. Because of the design of the Wilwood master cylinder, the fluid will gravitate to the back reservoir and empty the front reservoir. A 1993 Dodge Shadow master cylinder can be used for this manual brake system also along with a G-body manual brake master cylinder.
For brake pads, you want to run a pad with a colder “bite”, unless you are running an autocross event. Auto parts store EE rates pads will give a colder bite than FF rated pads. EE rated pads are usually the lower priced, semi metallic pads. EE pads require less heat to work than a FF rated pad, but there friction properties are not as good as an FF rated pad when the designed temperatures are exceeded. The rating should be somewhere printed on the pad when you buy from the auto parts store. Most aftermarket (Wilwood, EBC, Hawk, etc.) pads require more heat, but they may have a pad that is designed to work better when colder for drag racing purposes.
Last edited:
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This is the PA kit on my GN
