Anyone running propane injection?

[Black Car]

Can you tell us anything more about the in car controlling of flow rate device?

TIA,
Gary

 

[JayC]

Well, we decided to kick it old school for the electronics. Basically you turn the knob and a bird comes out and flys into the trunk and turns a valve then comes back and gets back in the box waiting for the next adjustment ala' Flinstones style.

What do you think?

 

[Turboniam]

Originally posted by ILBCNU6
HD5 Propane is 110 oct

Gene, do you know how prevelant HD5 is to purchase for regular consumers?

Also, how sure are you that it is rated at 110 octane? I have been doing research on propane and I can't find a "definitive" answer to the question. Not questioning you in a negative way, rather just trying to get edumacated!

 

[The Radius Kid]

Originally posted by JayC
Well, we decided to kick it old school for the electronics. Basically you turn the knob and a bird comes out and flys into the trunk and turns a valve then comes back and gets back in the box waiting for the next adjustment ala' Flinstones style.

What do you think?

Sounds like one heck of a bird.What do you feed him?

 

[JayC]

At least my attempt at humor wasnt compleytely lost.

The electronics allow you to change the pulsewidth on the solenoid as well as adjust the turn on point of the system. We may offer an upgraded electronics package with overboost warning and some other stuff. Thats up in the air right now.

 

[import power on]

Originally posted by JayC
At least my attempt at humor wasnt compleytely lost.

The electronics allow you to change the pulsewidth on the solenoid as well as adjust the turn on point of the system. We may offer an upgraded electronics package with overboost warning and some other stuff. Thats up in the air right now.

Sounds nice

 

[The Radius Kid]

Originally posted by JayC
At least my attempt at humor wasnt compleytely lost.

The electronics allow you to change the pulsewidth on the solenoid as well as adjust the turn on point of the system. We may offer an upgraded electronics package with overboost warning and some other stuff. Thats up in the air right now.

That was actually quite an image.Good one.
I was waiting to see if you'd build in a control module of some sort.I like it.

 

[JayC]

I really intended to make several pieces of this kit optional to keep the price down but it just doesn't look like I'm going to be able to and be where I want. The kit would be a lot cheaper if the electronics and regulator were made optional pieces but I think you really need them to get "the whole package" so they're staying.

We are sourcing parts now trying to get the cost of the system down. We knocked a good chunk off tonight by sourcing our steel braided line out somewhere else so hopefully we will find some other places that are a bit cheaper as well.

 

[TType85]

Import Power On.

Looking at your kit, it still looks to me like a kit put together from the hardware store (except you drilled out some fittings). The part that really disturbs me is the fact you use a rubber line to go from regulator to the engine. Is this run under the car or through the car? What about somthing happening to the line it rubs through somthing hits it, etc. I would feel alot safer with a braided steel line. Even though braided steel can still do the same, its much tougher. Sometimes it better to spend a little extra money when it comes to saftey and piece of mind.

 

[import power on]

Originally posted by TType85
Import Power On.

Looking at your kit, it still looks to me like a kit put together from the hardware store (except you drilled out some fittings). The part that really disturbs me is the fact you use a rubber line to go from regulator to the engine. Is this run under the car or through the car? What about somthing happening to the line it rubs through somthing hits it, etc. I would feel alot safer with a braided steel line. Even though braided steel can still do the same, its much tougher. Sometimes it better to spend a little extra money when it comes to saftey and piece of mind.

I challenge you to find the 100psi adjustable reg, high flow LPG solenoid, and teh Needle valve we use at any hardware store.

To keep the price down we do not use Steel braid, but a 250psi fuel line. This is however not pressureized as the solenoid is at the tank not under the hood.

A steel braid could be added by the consumer if they wanted it.

 

[import power on]

To add to the fuel line concern, Diesel Performance Products, whose kit sells for $549 plus shipping, and have been donig this for years, also uses a rubber fuel line. Except thiers is only rated at 50psi, ours is 250psi.

 

[Steve Wood]

It's an interesting proposition and we will all be watching to see how it really performs.

Looking at this, http://www.afdc.nrel.gov/pdfs/fueltable.pdf

I am not sure that I see an overwhelming advantage to either propane or alcohol but theory does not always pan out on the road. I was surprised to see as much carbon in propane as the chart shows but, it does deliver a lot of btus of heat per unit so it may take a lot less to perform well.

On the other hand, multiple smaller alky nozzles seem to allow higher boost beyond the 24# that many of us achieve and, at the same time, seem to use less alcohol.

The motor octane of propane is a bit lower than I would have guessed and alcohol appears to give a lower octane on the test engine that its apparent octane would appear in the real world (I believe Don Wang as explained this dichotomy in the past). Additional timing might favor the alky?

If the chart is right, I would guess that propane might make more power at lower boosts but alky might allow more boost and the street performance on 93 octane might be equivalent.

Guessing does not mean much, tho', so it will be interesting to see what reality brings on the street.

 

[TType85]

One advantage I see of the propane over the alky is the fact that one fillup seems to last alot longer than the bottle of alky. and seeing how my BBQ bottle was only $7 to fill, it is a cheap refill too (alky is cheap too, but for those of us who drive hard it goes away real quick)

 

[turbowrenchhead]

I got a chance to race my car around the track at road america. My alky only lastest two laps. It is pain when you have your boost set and someone wants to race you and you see the low level light come on for the alky bottle. Oh please wait while I refill my alky bottle please.

 

[IronEagle119]

so we've pretty much got the whole bottle PSI thing out of the way in summer heat. But what about in the late fall before the GN goes into hibernation in it's cave for the winter? Will I still be able to run the propane in say in the range of 20-40 degree range, any possible problems with running it then?

 

[JayC]

Already got that covered.

Custom bottle heater will be available as an option

 

[IronEagle119]

Looks like I'm hooked on propane. Will you have another option for a gas grill hookup? and since were using better propane would that mean we'd grill better food?

 

[tminer]

Originally posted by ILBCNU6
One fact about Propane is the forklift type is a blend and therefore better than the LP gas for the gas grill! HD5 is 110 oct and cost more than plain jane gas. Our LP regulators cost about $60 and drop the pressure to 1 1/2# good enough to run a 4.3 GM V6 engine with plenty of snort, LP only not a mix with gas. One thing I would be worried about is a backfire through the intake that would be like a bomb. Gene

HD5 is better than LPG (Liquid Petroleum (not propane) Gas, about 90% proprane and 10% butane,etc) but 100% propane is the best. That 110 must be the Research number. My research (which includes the same DOE document provided by master Wood plus plenty of supporting info) indicates that pure propane is 112 Research, 97 Motor or 104 (R+M)/2. LPG is somewhat less depending on the blend, but typically 100 (R+M)/2 in the US.

Even if we use the Research number of 112, going from 17 to 24 psi just adding propane for the fuel for the addittional 22% O2 (assuming no loss or gain from heat or propane expansion) with 93 octane gas we still only have an effective octane of 96.4 ( ((100*93) + (22*112))/122 ). So I don't think that octane is the reason that the boost can be increased so much.

I know with alky that nearly the same results can be achieved with water if enough gasoline is provided. The cooling and vaporization are primarily responsible for detonation suppression. The alky is often needed for fuel since a 93 octane chip doesn't supply enough for 24 psi. Both methanol and ethanol are only around 100 (R+M)/2 octane, despite many rumors to the contrary. This is why if one gets the fuel right it is possible to achieve high boost levels with fairly small amounts of highly atomized water. Alky does bring something to the table, but probably not enough to be worthwhile unless needed to prevent the water from freezing.

I am not knocking propane injection. It would be preferable to using alky if used for fuel. I am not saying that it doesn't work. I just don't buy some of the reasoning as to why it works. I look forward to more details on Jay's kit.

Tom

 

[TType85]

Originally posted by tminer

Even if we use the Research number of 112, going from 17 to 24 psi just adding propane for the fuel for the addittional 22% O2 (assuming no loss or gain from heat or propane expansion) with 93 octane gas we still only have an effective octane of 96.4 ( ((100*93) + (22*112))/122 ). So I don't think that octane is the reason that the boost can be increased so much.

Where does the 22% come from (isnt 24psi 29.2% more than 17psi?)? Depending on the turbo, wouldnt the volume of o2 be different at 24psi (a TA-49 compared to say a LT-70?)

Whats aslo not taken into account here is the fact that alky and propane will cool the air charge down. Propanes boiling point is -43°. That has to have and effect on the octane required to run a certain amount of boost.

 

[Steve Wood]

Check out the latent heat of vaporization of the above cited DOE chart.