Atomization of Methanol Theory

[karolko]

So i have read alot of the posts in regards to the placement of nozzles and the man himself said that the placement doesnt really matter, side by side or one on top and one on bottom, but my worry is the atomization of methanol in the charge pipe.

so if you have the dual nozzles side by side, won;t the meth spray into itself and the methanol molecules will clumo back together, therefore becoming more innefficent?

late night thinking. i am sure Julio is laughing at my dumb questions...



thanks

 

[Alky V6]

Conditions that inhibit vaporization of methanol:
low charge velocity.
low temperature.
high pressure.
flow bends and turns, causing fuel fallout.

Atomization would be a particle size state, just before vaporization. Methanol must be vaporized to be used with the oxygen in air for combustion.

Conditions that promote atomization and vaporization:
high charge velocity.
high temperature.
low pressure.
Chaos.

 

[karolko]

what do you mean by low charge velocity?

high temp promotes atomization, but doesn't methanol cool everything down?

or are you speaking of the methanol in the cylinder chamber?

this might be a dumb question, but where doe sthe fuel atomize? in the intake manifold, or in the cylinder chamber?

 

[Alky V6]

what do you mean by low charge velocity?

high temp promotes atomization, but doesn't methanol cool everything down?

or are you speaking of the methanol in the cylinder chamber?

this might be a dumb question, but where doe sthe fuel atomize? in the intake manifold, or in the cylinder chamber?

Higher velocities tend to hold the fuel in suspension better than low velocities. Low intake charge velocities will allow more fuel fall out. Fuel dropping out of the intake charge and settling on the manifold and port walls.

You're correct about the temps. Higher air temps will promote vaporization of methanol. As the methanol vaporizes and absorbs heat energy and lowers the surrounding air temperature, the rate of methanol vaporization will slow.

I just did a post to another thread that will answer your other questions.
Name of the post is 'Alky Cooling Effect Data'.

 

[karolko]

alright, so going back to my original question, from what you have said, even if you place both nozzles so they fire towards each other, with higher velocities and temps, they will re atomize?

i have read your other post two or thrre times, but al the time it has been 2am and thinking is very hard.

Adrian

 

[Alky V6]

alright, so going back to my original question, from what you have said, even if you place both nozzles so they fire towards each other, with higher velocities and temps, they will re atomize?

i have read your other post two or thrre times, but al the time it has been 2am and thinking is very hard.

Adrian

Pointing the nozzles at each other creates the chaos part of the equation. It's like taking a small salad dressing bottle filled half way with oil and vinegar. Let it sit and the oil and vinegar separate. No mixing. Shake the bottle and the contents mix. That's chaos. That's why you hear suggestions of pointing injection nozzles the opposite direction of air flow, injecting upstream into the oncoming air flow. On a windy day, if you take your garden hose and spray it the direction of the wind you get a nice even, tame and pretty flow of water to the ground. Now turn around and point the water into the wind. What happens? The water stream is turned into a chaotic mist of water. You get drenched and the superior vaporization of the water cools the air further, not to mention the water that is vaporizing off your now wet clothes and eventually causing a slow, painful death from pnumonia.

 

[Alky V6]

karolco. I hope I've answered all your questions. There's no such thing as a dumb question. If you need anymore clarification on anything. Let me know.

 

[norbs]

How can you assure each cyl gets the same amount of methanol, with one nozzle in the pipe 12" away.

 

[Alky V6]

How can you assure each cyl gets the same amount of methanol, with one nozzle in the pipe 12" away.

You can't. That's why port injection is so nice.

What you can do to minimize distribution problems with a single nozzle will be to get the best quality of atomization and nitrous/fuel mixing at the nozzle, and set the distance of the nozzle so that the mixture has time to convert, as much as possible, to a vapor before the mixture has to make any drastic turns. Vapors have a much easier time making a turn than droplets do.

I'm not sure what distance the single nozzle kits suggest, but when I put my single nozzle kit together, I will be doing some simple tests to see how far it takes for the mixture to mostly vaporize. I think Scott (Chevota) may have figured out a good distance for nozzle to vapor distance with his truck. Maybe he'll chime in with that. That distance could also be different for different nozzle designs.

Anyway, you will never be assured perfectly equal distribution from a single nozzle. You'll notice that plate systems are constantly evolving, because of the endless search for better distribution.

A single nozzle system is good for small hp shots. Any distribution problems that result from a small system are managable. As the system hp number increases, distribution problems become more acute. That's why you see big systems always being port injected.

Dry single nozzle systems can be less of a problem as far as distribution, because you don't have to worry about fuel fall out, but the port injector system must accurately add the required amount of extra fuel to burn with the nitrous at the right time.

I would also experiment with pointing the nitrous nozzle into the oncoming flow of air to help the mixing. It might be best to consult with the manufacturer of the nozzle first.

 

[karolko]

Donnie, i have been pondering about this for a couple of days now inbetween the rest of the srap i have to deal with, and understand your metaphore about the waterhose pointing into the wind. it makes sense to me, however i am trying to picture two mists spraying towards eachother. at first, the liquid will be fairly small "bubbles", but since each bubble is being sprayed toward each other, they will collide and turn into a larger bubble.

larger bubble means less surface area and more prone to not vaporizing properly...

so my idea is to have them further apart. one on top and one on bottom.

is that making sense? let me know what you think

 

[Alky V6]

Donnie, i have been pondering about this for a couple of days now inbetween the rest of the srap i have to deal with, and understand your metaphore about the waterhose pointing into the wind. it makes sense to me, however i am trying to picture two mists spraying towards eachother. at first, the liquid will be fairly small "bubbles", but since each bubble is being sprayed toward each other, they will collide and turn into a larger bubble.

larger bubble means less surface area and more prone to not vaporizing properly...

so my idea is to have them further apart. one on top and one on bottom.

is that making sense? let me know what you think

I understand your point. We need to remember that the airflow is also crossing these two sprays. A few questions come to my mind.

Are the two sprays powerful enough to contact each other through the cross flow of air?

Is the flow from each nozzle a strong, straight and narrow stream, or is a misting nozzle being used?

If misting nozzles are being used, I doubt that the sprays would be able to contact each other because of the cross airflow.

I would hope misting nozzles are being used anyway.

When two fluid droplets collide, I would think they would break up into more smaller droplets. Not absorb into one. Seems like some experimenting is in order.

 

[rmar]

Don,
I noticed you immediately went to your nitrous findings.
to answer the ?. So with out using NOS (for now) would a port injected meth be worth the hassle? Seems as it would.

 

[Alky V6]

Port injected anything is better. Just harder to set up.

It seems the single and dual nozzle meth systems are doing the job. I don't think trying to set up a port system would be worth it. Now if you're talking about switching completely over to meth, then yes, you must go to port.

 

[rmar]

Couldn't you use just use dual alky control system to
2 seperate blocks to top of runner? Same volume. and only have to split 3 way.

Oh, and I enjoy all your post. Great info. Thanks

 

[rmar]

I think all the kits get the job done when tuned properly.
But it would eliminate all the ? about what cylinder is getting what. And even out individual temps.

And I have a bunch of NOS plumbing setting around doing nothing.

 

[Alky V6]

I don't know about running two separate systems like that. It would be very hard to ensure that the volume from the systems are equal. I think I would have one line split to two, each feeding a distribution block for each bank, like you were suggesting. The jet sizes for each port, I would guess, would need to be very small. How much meth are you suggesting feeding to each port?

 

[rmar]

With a dual system, I would do several tests and measurements to see how consistent the standard Alky DP
is. If they are close enough then add the block,pipe and
jets. Retest for uniformity out of each from there.
If it is not consistant,repump. Or go to phase2 of the plan.

And we need no more meth than what the better systems are currently supplying. But as long as it is purged and the pump works you will have Alky where it is supposed to be in the correct amounts.

One pump would make it easier.

 

[karolko]

so Donnie, if i were to tell you that i had Julio's progressive kit would that tell you how my jets spray? i wold think that the mist in a conical pattern.

Does anyone know how many psi does the Alky kit spray at.

when you say that when two molecules hit that they would break into smaller pieces. i guess that depends on what velocity they are traveling... Research is right. now just how?

yes i can imagine that if the air velocity is high enough the conical spray pattern will curve inward.

maybe a clear plastic tube with a flourecent die in the methanol and a black light??? could that work???

 

[rmar]

karolko,
Sorry you can have your thread back now.

 

[Alky V6]

so Donnie, if i were to tell you that i had Julio's progressive kit would that tell you how my jets spray? i wold think that the mist in a conical pattern.

Does anyone know how many psi does the Alky kit spray at.

when you say that when two molecules hit that they would break into smaller pieces. i guess that depends on what velocity they are traveling... Research is right. now just how?

yes i can imagine that if the air velocity is high enough the conical spray pattern will curve inward.

maybe a clear plastic tube with a flourecent die in the methanol and a black light??? could that work???

I don't know. If you do it, take a video. Sounds cool.