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toofastforyou
2FAST4U
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
- Messages
- 5,785
Warning about ATR bar!...
Guys, I don't mean to break up the fun here, but be warned that the ATR bar will hurt your 60 ft. times! I too, thought that the bar would help my car leave straighter and thus giving better 60 ft. times, but I found out that it was too stiff, and after several trips to the track, wondering what was wrong with my car not leaving as hard as it used to, I leaned under the car, and unbolted the bar, and on the next run, I left with both wheels up in the air, something that I heven't been able to do at all since I put the big ATR bar on!! Thses bars are probably great for road handling, but surely not for drag racing...
Well I just thought I'd let you know...
'Bye, Claude.
Guys, I don't mean to break up the fun here, but be warned that the ATR bar will hurt your 60 ft. times! I too, thought that the bar would help my car leave straighter and thus giving better 60 ft. times, but I found out that it was too stiff, and after several trips to the track, wondering what was wrong with my car not leaving as hard as it used to, I leaned under the car, and unbolted the bar, and on the next run, I left with both wheels up in the air, something that I heven't been able to do at all since I put the big ATR bar on!! Thses bars are probably great for road handling, but surely not for drag racing...
Well I just thought I'd let you know...
'Bye, Claude.
I'm sorry, but I will have to disagree.......the ATR bar is designed for drag racing, not road racing( unless you enjoy a lot of rear end out action)
if your 60' times slowed down, you are very much in the minority
my car leaves straight, both wheels up..........slightly higher on the driver's side....high 1.4 60's
much improved over the stock bar
( no front bar, 90/10 shocks, boxed uppers and lowers)
if your 60' times slowed down, you are very much in the minority
my car leaves straight, both wheels up..........slightly higher on the driver's side....high 1.4 60's
much improved over the stock bar
( no front bar, 90/10 shocks, boxed uppers and lowers)
L
LikeMy6
Guest
Claude,
You are the 1st person I have read about loosing time on your 60 ft from the bar. I would bet that something was in a bind. are you saying that you unbolted the bar and ran a wheels up with no bar at all? that I would like to see! I know of no one before you, that didnt get a performance gain from using this bar. I believe Paul Ferry was cutting 1.3s 60 ft times with an ATR bar and his control arms! and I also believe Jason Cramer of RJC products is running 1.3s as well, using the ATR bar and South Side Lowers and Stock-Boxed uppers!! doesnt look like it slowed these guys down.
Frank
You are the 1st person I have read about loosing time on your 60 ft from the bar. I would bet that something was in a bind. are you saying that you unbolted the bar and ran a wheels up with no bar at all? that I would like to see! I know of no one before you, that didnt get a performance gain from using this bar. I believe Paul Ferry was cutting 1.3s 60 ft times with an ATR bar and his control arms! and I also believe Jason Cramer of RJC products is running 1.3s as well, using the ATR bar and South Side Lowers and Stock-Boxed uppers!! doesnt look like it slowed these guys down.
Frank
Re: Warning about ATR bar!...
I don't agree. See the 60' times in my sig, they were done with a 5# launch. I've had the ATR bar on my car since day one. It's always left the line straight. I run the same air pressure in both rear air bags, just to keep the tires off of the fender lips.
-Banning.
I don't agree. See the 60' times in my sig, they were done with a 5# launch. I've had the ATR bar on my car since day one. It's always left the line straight. I run the same air pressure in both rear air bags, just to keep the tires off of the fender lips.
-Banning.
HRpartsNstuff
Member
- Joined
- May 27, 2001
- Messages
- 844
My best 60 ft time was a 1.401 @ 10.71/125MPH.
For a comparison, most people running mid/upper 10's are around 1.46-1.54 60ft's.
I had the stock swaybar on there at the time. I tried it without a bar, and it hurt performance. For anyone who has seen my car, you can tell that I needed an anti-roll setup. The ATR bar might have helped, but it wouldn't have been the best way to do it. I wish I had thought up our new swaybar idea back then! Our control arms contributed to my great 60 ft (off the foot brake). They let the suspension travel smooth & easily with no bind. This lets the weight transfer quick & then you can launch as hard as you want to
Claude, my guess why you lost 60 ft time (higher #) is that the ATR bar was too wide for your car. That would push the control arms apart & put a lot of side pressure on the poly bushings. Maybe "binding up" is not the correct term here, it is more like causing resistance. This resistance keeps the suspension from moving fast like it need to, and then the weight never has a chance to transfer, and most likely results in wheel spin. Any chance you remember having to really pound the bar in place???
That is one reason we went to this new swaybar design. NO possible chance of binding or causing resistance on any car with any control arms. Another issue to consider is that with a larger stock style swaybar like the ATR piece, the lower control arms are doing all the work trying to keep the body level at launch. This added strain will rip out the forward frame mount for the lower control arms easier. We do make a reinforcing brace that welds on the stock mounting brackets to keep them from being ripped out, but that is still a lot of stress going thru there. That is also a lot of stress transmitted thru the poly bushings in the ends of the CA's, which could cause some binding.
We just found a better way to get the same results
Better if you have the track all by yourself (Autocross, Open road race, solo II, even Open Track would be "OK").
Worse if you are racing in a pack of cars (SCCA club racing)
The bar is wonderful if you can pick your lines. The bar can be scary if you are forced off line, as the back end can come around without much effort. After driving my '86 Pontiac nearly flat out for nearly 60 miles on narrow, winding, rough, gravel covered roads (between 90 and 144 mph, averaging 110 mph) I love the big bar in back, stock bar in front set up.
But....if I had to pass cars, or let someone else drive and me ride shotgun, I'd opt for a smaller rear bar. The big bar in back does make the car more FUN to drive.
The group purchase is happening now. If you are interested and have not been contacted, please go to the Group Purchase area and post. You will be contacted from there. Or else, mail me direct at: hipsibri@cs.com.
Thanks,
Brian
Thanks,
Brian
toofastforyou
2FAST4U
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
- Messages
- 5,785
?????????
I know I sound crazy, but I cannot understand why I actually lost traction with the big ATR bar!...I know that most of you guys improved their et's with it, but what can I say???...Also HrpartsNstuff, the bar went in quite easily when I installed it, so there was minimal "bind"...I'm not trying to say that all of you guys are wrong, it is just that I still don't understand why my car didn't like it...I had the feeling that the added stiffness of the bar worked AGAINST the weight transfer process by binding up the lower control arms , but then this is just a feeling I had when I was launching the car. It's not that I take pleasure in disagreeing with you guys!... I'm just relating my experience with the ATR bar...that's it!
'Bye, Claude.
I know I sound crazy, but I cannot understand why I actually lost traction with the big ATR bar!...I know that most of you guys improved their et's with it, but what can I say???...Also HrpartsNstuff, the bar went in quite easily when I installed it, so there was minimal "bind"...I'm not trying to say that all of you guys are wrong, it is just that I still don't understand why my car didn't like it...I had the feeling that the added stiffness of the bar worked AGAINST the weight transfer process by binding up the lower control arms , but then this is just a feeling I had when I was launching the car. It's not that I take pleasure in disagreeing with you guys!...
I'm just relating my experience with the ATR bar...that's it!'Bye, Claude.
HRpartsNstuff
Member
- Joined
- May 27, 2001
- Messages
- 844
Re: ?????????
If I have learned one thing by now, it's that ANYTHING is possible
If you look at what's going on there, it makes perfect sense. A bigger swaybar and/or anti-roll setup is NOT for everyone. If you had just enough weight transfer before because you were lifting the drivers front tire more than the pass (which most of us do), then you lost that with the big swaybar. The swaybar made it so you had to lift the pass side along with the drivers side, keeping car more level. Well, if you don't launch it hard enough to get BOTH wheels up (not necessarily in the air). then you LOST weight transfer & traction & 60 ft. The bigger bars are designed to keep car more level. This doesn't always equate to a better 60 ft time. If I were to wager a guess, I would say that cars with the big swaybars will have a "blank" spot for launching. You will do fine below a certain boost level (say 5psi), and above a certain point (say 12psi). Any psi in between (6-11) will not work, for the reason above. It is enough to overpower the tires, but not enough to get the entire front to rise. This will be different on every car & combo too. Generally speaking, I would bet you will need to launch harder with the new bar to get it to work.
Another way to look at it would be like you had 90/10 shocks up front before the bar, and 50/50 after. The front will not rise as fast because it has to lift more weight initially. Hope that makes some sense, there is a lot going on there. If you are not in the 11's or faster & already twisting hard off the line, it might not help you at all. It may look level, but it wouldn't be as fast.
Originally posted by toofastforyou
I had the feeling that the added stiffness of the bar worked AGAINST the weight transfer process by binding up the lower control arms , but then this is just a feeling I had when I was launching the car. It's not that I take pleasure in disagreeing with you guys!...
'Bye, Claude.
If I have learned one thing by now, it's that ANYTHING is possible
If you look at what's going on there, it makes perfect sense. A bigger swaybar and/or anti-roll setup is NOT for everyone. If you had just enough weight transfer before because you were lifting the drivers front tire more than the pass (which most of us do), then you lost that with the big swaybar. The swaybar made it so you had to lift the pass side along with the drivers side, keeping car more level. Well, if you don't launch it hard enough to get BOTH wheels up (not necessarily in the air). then you LOST weight transfer & traction & 60 ft. The bigger bars are designed to keep car more level. This doesn't always equate to a better 60 ft time. If I were to wager a guess, I would say that cars with the big swaybars will have a "blank" spot for launching. You will do fine below a certain boost level (say 5psi), and above a certain point (say 12psi). Any psi in between (6-11) will not work, for the reason above. It is enough to overpower the tires, but not enough to get the entire front to rise. This will be different on every car & combo too. Generally speaking, I would bet you will need to launch harder with the new bar to get it to work.
Another way to look at it would be like you had 90/10 shocks up front before the bar, and 50/50 after. The front will not rise as fast because it has to lift more weight initially. Hope that makes some sense, there is a lot going on there. If you are not in the 11's or faster & already twisting hard off the line, it might not help you at all. It may look level, but it wouldn't be as fast.
Lifting the front end is unneeded motion, you will 60' better if you don't do a wheels up launch. If you used to pick up the front tire, and now you dont because you put the bar on, and you are not breaking traction because of it, there is no reason why you shouldnt 60' the same or even better.
Now maybe you unconsciencely(spelling?) lifted from the gas on that pass, maybe you weren't getting full WOT voltage, maybe you just didnt launch with enough boost, but it just doesnt make sense.
Now maybe you unconsciencely(spelling?) lifted from the gas on that pass, maybe you weren't getting full WOT voltage, maybe you just didnt launch with enough boost, but it just doesnt make sense.
I am gonna order the ATR bar, but i have a question about removing the front sway bar. This is a Daily driven car. When I removed the front bar I experienced alot of leaning on turns, so I put it back on and everything is fine now With the bar off, the car was not stable at all. Now when I install the rear bar, would this mean that I could take off the front bar and the car will handle fine?
HRpartsNstuff
Member
- Joined
- May 27, 2001
- Messages
- 844
Originally posted by Sinful6
Lifting the front end is unneeded motion, you will 60' better if you don't do a wheels up launch.
I should have worded that differently. I am referring to the front end rising up from the weight transferring, not actually doing a wheelie. Even a pro stock full race car does this. You want the car to come out (forward) instead of wasting time doing a wheelie (unless you like to do that
), but you need some front end rise to get the weight onto the rear for traction. On cars with marginal traction like small slicks or street tires, this becomes more important. That is kinda like the old super stockers, they did outrageous wheel stands because of small tires & the combo they had to run.If you make the initial front end rise twice as heavy to lift, it may never lift at all, which will result in tire spin. If you have 14 x 32 slicks, then it won't spin & the car comes out hard. This is exactly why 90/10 shocks work in racing. They let the front start to rise easier, which gets weight to the back faster, which allows you to put more power to it, which lifts the front more, which transferrs more weight,...... = better 60 ft times
All this can happen before the wheels ever leave the pavement. If you restrict the travel of the front suspension, you can actually tune when all the weight hits the rear, or lessen a wheelie, or???HRpartsNstuff
Member
- Joined
- May 27, 2001
- Messages
- 844
we are somewhat agreeing on the same point here. Race Jace went 9.90's, and most "wheels up level" cars do. This theory works fine on these fast cars. It's the slower cars that don't have enough power to pull the wheels that might see a loss in 60 ft. It's like putting a 76 turbo on a stock GN, yeah they make a boat load of power & a bunch of fast cars run them, but will it help a slow car do any better.
Basically, my point was that if your car is not twisting hard off the line, and either pulling the wheels or getting close to it, there may only be minimal benefits (if any) with a big swaybar. The stock swaybar will be fine for these cars, unless you are doing it for handling purposes. I would not recommend my new swaybar/anti-roll setup to anyone running slower than mid/low 12's. I would have to do some thorough testing to see if there was any benefit on slower cars. Let me know how your track performance turns out.
Basically, my point was that if your car is not twisting hard off the line, and either pulling the wheels or getting close to it, there may only be minimal benefits (if any) with a big swaybar. The stock swaybar will be fine for these cars, unless you are doing it for handling purposes. I would not recommend my new swaybar/anti-roll setup to anyone running slower than mid/low 12's. I would have to do some thorough testing to see if there was any benefit on slower cars. Let me know how your track performance turns out.
sinful6....I have never seen a fast GN that didn't pull the front wheels....with a stock suspension..... and I agree the wheels up is a waste of energy (pro stocks leave very flat)........
but unless you have a full race suspension, you better have your tires in the air (level, hopefully) or you will LUZ to me and anybody else with a basically stock suspension that does
think Jace ran a 1.3 on his 9 sec pass
the ATR bar keeps 'em level
but unless you have a full race suspension, you better have your tires in the air (level, hopefully) or you will LUZ to me and anybody else with a basically stock suspension that does
think Jace ran a 1.3 on his 9 sec pass
the ATR bar keeps 'em level
Part of my point was that lets say you have a stock suspension car that pulls the front wheels 8in., you install a rear swaybar, and it no longer pulls the wheels, BUT you aren't spinning the tires on the launch either, then you are not wasting your energy as it is directed forward.
I don't see how your 60' can decrease unless you're spinning.
I don't see how your 60' can decrease unless you're spinning.
HRpartsNstuff
Member
- Joined
- May 27, 2001
- Messages
- 844
EXACTLY!
Only situation I can see that the bar would make/contribute to spinning the tires would be on mild setups that can't pull the front wheels. The bar would take away what little lift & weight transfer they are getting, causing it to spin. If the wheels are in the air, any type of swaybar/anti-roll setup should be beneficial. If they are not in the air, add some lead to your right foot
