Billet main caps?

[Wicked WE4]

Is it worth going with Billett main caps on a basically stock rebuild. I am reusing the stock crank, rods and pistons. My goal for the car is low 12's maybe high 11's eventually.

 

[Cme2fly]

Is it worth going with Billett main caps on a basically stock rebuild. I am reusing the stock crank, rods and pistons. My goal for the car is low 12's maybe high 11's eventually.

No, its not worth it..billet caps have to be machined to fit a block. I have had a few machinists screw up an alignment bore. You can acheive yours goals with a stock long block.

 

[Turbo-Archie]

Maybe just consider main studs...



..

 

[Squid4life]

Probably not "necessary" but maybe worth the extra piece of mind if you have the $. There are a handful of guys going 10's with unopened shortblocksor longblocks even. You have to factor in the price of the caps, ARP main studs, and line hone or line bore at the machine shop. My thinking is it may be overkill at the moment, but you may wish to upgrade and push the car more later, and would be nice having that extra insurance.

 

[turbotony1]

No, its not worth it..billet caps have to be machined to fit a block. I have had a few machinists screw up an alignment bore. You can acheive yours goals with a stock long block.

How can a machine shop screw up the align bore? Do they need to take special precautions when it comes to our V6 billet main caps, vs. a Chevy etc..

I'm asking because my motor is going in soon for caps.

Thanks

 

[Squid4life]

How can a machine shop screw up the align bore? Do they need to take special precautions when it comes to our V6 billet main caps, vs. a Chevy etc..

I'm asking because my motor is going in soon for caps.

Thanks

Curious the answer to that as well... Most of the time they install the caps, torque them, check the bore and bore alignment, and you may get away with a hone only. If the clearances are too big, then they have to take the caps off, take some meat off the mating surface, install and torque, recheck and bore/hone. not a horribly tough job, but machinists can screw anything up if in a hurry or not educated well enough.

 

[Nick Micale]

... Most of the time they install the caps, torque them, check the bore and bore alignment, and you may get away with a hone only..........

Maybe this is how the blocks/steel caps that we have seen which were totally screwed were done?

Takes a WHOLE lot more than that to do them properly.

 

[Squid4life]

Maybe this is how the blocks/steel caps that that we have seen which were totally screwed were done?

Takes a WHOLE lot more than that to do them properly.

I was being semi-quick and general in my reply. Would you mind telling us in detail your experiences with it or how you have it done?

 

[jasjamz]

I have had a shop screw up a main cap install for me before. It leaves you questioning the integrity of anything else that they do. It sure makes you insecure about putting any real pressure on the rotating assembly. I strongly suggest you deal with someone that is know to do Turbo Buick engines and not just a "good machine shop".

You dont need the main caps or the ARP studs for what you are looking to do. Now if your goals change then make ready for a new build.

 

[Detomaso71]

my stock block unopened engine ran 11.41 on 93 octane and alky all day long and even on a hot day with multiple passes would run high 11s on 1.51 to 1.65 sixty foot. 67mm turbo.
but any rebuild should get billet 2 and 3 main caps if you can afford it IMO, if you can get a copy of the last GSCA bulletin it goes over this in detail.
if the shops suck so bad they cant do it right you need a better shop!!

i talked with several shops and I liked weber, rpe, and dls although they are not cheap. i would get a quote from each one plus whoever else you want.

but to answer your original question i drove the car to norwalk (Over 4 hours away) and ran 11s all weekend and drove it back home last year without a worry on my original engine. when I built a new one to go faster i did main caps though.

 

[Cme2fly]

How can a machine shop screw up the align bore? Do they need to take special precautions when it comes to our V6 billet main caps, vs. a Chevy etc..

I'm asking because my motor is going in soon for caps.

Thanks

Machine shops do a lot more Chevy engines vs. Buick engines. I would assume you have to modify the bore fixture to accomodate a V-6 engine. However, I have had a well known Buick engine builder screw up a main bore job. I alway follow the old adage, "Measure twice, cut once."

 

[Squid4life]

I was being semi-quick and general in my reply. Would you mind telling us in detail your experiences with it or how you have it done?

Anxiously awaiting Nicks reply but I did forget to add one thing: The heads should be bolted in place for the line bore/hone. Just like boring/ honing the cylinders, bolting on a head can distort the cylinders, hence the usage of torque plates. For line hone/bore a set of heads should be bolted on.

That's what I get for answering quickly, while at work. :tongue:

 

[87GNSteve]

The more they "bore" the more slop in the chain and the need to get the right one if available.
For high perf builds I would go with a girdle personally.
I had a machine shop screw up a cam bearing install so imagine the damage they could do with an align bore.

 

[turbotony1]

Anxiously awaiting Nicks reply but I did forget to add one thing: The heads should be bolted in place for the line bore/hone. Just like boring/ honing the cylinders, bolting on a head can distort the cylinders, hence the usage of torque plates. For line hone/bore a set of heads should be bolted on.:

You said that the heads or a plate should be bolted to the block before the bore/ hone on the billet main caps. It funny you said that because I am looking for a good machine shop at the moment. I called three different places today. Two of the three machine shops that I spoke to today laughed at me when I said that I though plates would be necessary when boring our Buick V6 blocks!!! One guy told me that it is only needed when your working with an aluminum block and the other shop told me that they completely do not even believe in that process, no matter the engine block type. Needless to say, I will not be sending my money their way!

I'm glad I asked lots of questions.

 

[Squid4life]

You said that the heads or a plate should be bolted to the block before the bore/ hone on the billet main caps. It funny you said that because I am looking for a good machine shop at the moment. I called three different places today. Two of the three machine shops that I spoke to today laughed at me when I said that I though plates would be necessary when boring our Buick V6 blocks!!! One guy told me that it is only needed when your working with an aluminum block and the other shop told me that they completely do not even believe in that process, no matter the engine block type. Needless to say, I will not be sending my money their way!

I'm glad I asked lots of questions.

Yep, only way to learn is read on here and ask a butt-ton of questions, and in turn quiz the machine shop. I find it hard to find a shop I can trust, but got lucky here in CA. I have even gone to a shop and asked if I could walk through and take a look at the shop and some of their engines in work. They said no, so I left. I like to peek around, see what they are working on, see what kind of work they do, etc.

 

[Nick Micale]

No, its not worth it.......

In my humble opinion, the original question has been answered above.

We have cars with literally 1000's of passes. 12 - high 11 sec. runs, on stock rotating assemblies with no problems.

As far as details on machining procedures, it is not my option to publish the private methods of someone's machine shop.

There are many quality engine builders around the country that have done many turbo Buick V-6 builds, so my advise it to deal with a KNOWN and reliable shop, or vendor, if you want to be sure of a proper product.

If you shop on price alone, you are inviting trouble.

 

[Ed Valvo]

I'm with Nick on this one. Use a known buick engine builder. And it will not be cheap. I've seen so many people copy 10 second engine builds and never get them to live in the 11's. Some destructed in the 12's. Experience with these engines is a must. Anyone can bolt parts together. Getting one to run well and live is another story. I held off on getting my engine project started because there were no local engine builders that impressed me therefore I have been using my stock shortblock.

 

[Red Regal T]

You said that the heads or a plate should be bolted to the block before the bore/ hone on the billet main caps. It funny you said that because I am looking for a good machine shop at the moment. I called three different places today. Two of the three machine shops that I spoke to today laughed at me when I said that I though plates would be necessary when boring our Buick V6 blocks!!! One guy told me that it is only needed when your working with an aluminum block and the other shop told me that they completely do not even believe in that process, no matter the engine block type. Needless to say, I will not be sending my money their way!

I'm glad I asked lots of questions.

This says it all, and I would have sarcastically suggested what machine shops really think of torque plates, "we don't need that $hit ... too much work!" But now, we hear it right from the horse's mouth in case you had any doubts. It's just like anything else ... TODAY. Only the dollar matters, and it wasn't always like that, and I could tell you why. I've come to the understanding, if you can't do it yourself, whatever the task, you're in for a world of hurt.