Boost retard?

[John Purdom]

I work with a fellow that is a 23 yr GM tech, Calloway certified, etc. It is his opinion that our cars could run much better in cruise/street mode with much more timing than most of the chip burners use. As he puts it, the timing tables for our cars seem to be burned for WOT/high boost conditions, and that the timing is too retarded for a low compression engine at less than full throttle. As an example, he was telling me that the NA 3.8 ran 22 degrees of initial lead! He is suggesting a more agressive timing table in the chip, to be pulled out to a safe level under boost by a boost retard such as an MSD. Is there a product like this that will work on our engines, and has anyone tried this approach? His theories seem to hold water, yet this is not something I see you guys talking about or doing, so I have to assume there is a reason.

Theory #2 is that in general, most of us run too little timing in these cars, period. I have a drawer full of chips by the best out there, and I can tell you that none of them ran as good as the chips I was getting from a local Buick racer, Bill Duke. His chips were much more agressive on timing than most everyone else, and I can attest that the car seemed to make at least 75 to 100 hp more than with anyone elses chips in it. My problem now is that he will not burn for anything over a 50# injector (believes in going FAST over that point), and I'm running 72# ers. The fueling in the chips I have now (from another tuner) is dead on, and I am thinking of having him dial in his timing tables in these chips. He tells me that in his experience, these motors like as much timing as they can handle, as long as you keep them fueled. He says that in fact, more power can often be made with a few # less boost, and higher timing. I am hoping that those of you with extensive mods/low 11 to 10 second cars w/factory computers and lots of tuning experience will chime in here with your thoughts.

Thanks

 

[Sleeper]

Jay Carter has such a chip, that uses Ken Moshers boost sensing harness to vary timing.
Also a lot of the chip burners are already upping the timing in the low LV8 (load) areas. If your friend is looking at the old stock eprom... A lot of discoveries and upgrades have been made since.
FWIW stock chip @1200 rpm LV8 of 40... the timing is 46.1 deg. 2400 rpm same load it's 43.9deg That sure beats the 22 deg your friend is talking about
Many factors come into play when determining the maximum amount of boost and timing that can be used before detonation, but one of the important ones, is the octane rating of the fuel. There are obvious limits to pump gas and street chips. Race gas and race prepped motors is a whole different discussion.

There has been a lot of discussion about boost vs timing, and it seems that boost is favored over timing. I'll let the experts speak.

Paul

 

[Donald McMullin]

I have used Jay Carter VT chips with 38# and 55# injectors. I like the higher timing at zero to 10 psig boost his chips provide. At 10 psig his chips start pulling timing up to 10* by a set boost level.

I hope I explained his chip correctly. Contact Mr. Carter for more details.

Deep Enough
Donald McMullin

 

[John Purdom]

Hey, thanks guys. As a matter of fact, my friend talked to Jay today. Thanks for you input.

 

[BJM]

I believe the factory timing is purely an exercise in meeting emissions. With my Translator I find my car can run +4 degrees up to 3500 RPM on an old JC chip. Its more responsive for sure.

 

[99Formula]

I was just going to mention the Translator+ as well. For the street I run +4 degrees base with -4 degrees WOT (giving me +4 below 3500, and 0 advance at WOT). At the track with a little better gas, I just set the WOT to 0 (giving me +4 across the board) and dial in more boost.

Peter

 

[Slow91z]

Here's a ????... How much timing can you advance or retard with a translator+???

 

[BJM]

The translator has +/- 14 degrees on two knobs which are additive. +14 on the one gives flat timing increase from 0-infinity RPM, the other is from 3500 +. You could if you wanted to really blow away your head gaskets do 14+14 above 3500 RPM. I usually do +4 and -4 to give 0 above 3500 RPM.

 

[Slow91z]

That sounds pretty good...I agree with you on the timing issue I never felt like we ran enough timing on the street in these cars during boost free driving...I might have to look at the Translator+ option a little harder I didn't realize that it was THAT adjustable.

 

[John Purdom]

I have a trans + but had to disconnect the timing feature. It was throwing the timing way out of whack and setting code 42's. Guess I lost a bit of faith. Tried all the suggested cures to no avail.

Still love it for the ability to run an LS1/LT1 MAF tho

MSD emailed us back and says they have a setup for our cars that consists of 3 different components. have not priced them as yet. Wonder if anyone here has?

 

[BJM]

I remember a thread where a guy had timing troubles with the translator, was that you? It sure sounded like and EMI/EMC issue. I read that thread before I connected my timing up and was worried about having problems but its been flawless.

 

[John Purdom]

Yes, that was me. It was found to be the Translator after replacing the module, swapping computers, chips, etc. The unit worked well for months, and then malfunctioned. I hope my post on that did not deter anyone from buying a Trans, that was not my intention. (altho there were a few responses sighting similiar experiences) Placing electronics in a hot engine bay can, at times, be problematic. I suppose I could send it back to Bob for him to ck/fix, but I also have a brand new translator (non+) that I could pop in. May try that.

 

[rb68rr]

Hey John, what's up? I've got the translator, not the plus, in my car and I keep getting code 42 nearly everytime I get into the boost. Got any suggestions? How's old Jeff Kmosko doing? Thanks, R.B.

 

[John Purdom]

Originally posted by rb68rr
Hey John, what's up? I've got the translator, not the plus, in my car and I keep getting code 42 nearly everytime I get into the boost. Got any suggestions? How's old Jeff Kmosko doing? Thanks, R.B.

Hey RB,
Haven't talked w/Jeff in awhile. You may need to try the same thing, and bypass the timing function on the Trans. to see if that cures your problem.

An update on my car/timing issues: My car just seemed down on power/sluggish. So many changes were made at once, had to go back to square one to try to pin it down. Took out the 72# injectors and the chip for them, re-installed the 009's and Billy Duke chip. Car runs like a raped ape. (AV gas/20# boost) The fueling was dead on w/the 72's , it was the timing in that chip that was slow.(interestingly, it is a "28 degree" chip, where as Billy's is a 26 degree) The plan is to burn a chip w/the same fueling for the 72's, but replace the timing tables w/Billy's. I firmly believe that it's not the timing marked on the chip, it's the timing "curve" that makes all the difference. (Where/how much timing comes in/out)

A humorous aside, after getting the thing running like it should, I completely decimated a brand new pair of ET Streets 28x11.5x16 (down to the cord.) in less than 150 miles, no burnouts. They would spin like mad thru 1st and 2nd, but I had never done in a set of tires that quickly.

 

[Eric Stage I]

Hey John,

I have a feeling fueling has a lot to do with it. With the 009's, the fuel is maxed at 42# (or less depending on how Billy set up the fuel). With the race chip I made for you, you're starting at 48#! (I set it up for 67% duty cycle). You would have to run a min of 26psi to use up that fuel. It would definitely be sluggish at lower boost.
I know we talked about doing a lower boost (around 20psi) high timing chip, but never got around to it. I'll take care of this whenever you're ready. By the way, the timing in that chip starts at about 32 degrees at 0psi and ramps down to 28 deg at around 10psi (then 23 at 3rd gear). If you have directscan, you'll see it on there (if you look in the chip, it won't show up on the main timing table).
Let me know buddy! We'll get it straightened out!

Maybe Santa will bring you some new ET Streets this year...lol.

Talk to you later,
Eric

 

[salvageV6]

Timing Control

There is a device out there also by TurboBob that controls only timing in the cars.

Timing Translator it is called.

You can use MAFless ME type chips or else the stock style MAF setup with it.

I have one on the GN.

Has similar knobs to the T+ unit but only does timing and has a couple of extra features the translator timing control doesn't have.

Inf0. should be on Ramchargers site.

I don't think 3 pieces of MSD stuff are needed to control timing.