Buick 181 NA build/turbo ideas

[CamoDeafie]

has anyone else attempted to build the measly little Buick 181/3.0L carbureted engines found in the FWD X-cars and A-cars in 1982-1985?
I'm saving up to buy a particular 1982 Oldsmobile Ciera 2 door, which is currently equipped with the LK9 engine....as far as my info on these engines go; I am interested in the posisbility of this build with the following steps after getting it to be drivable and running good
1) intake/head port matching and opening up air flow; maybe upgrade to 4bbl Q jet....
2) roller cam/lifter swap, not sure which cam yet, since i have a 2.66 stroke and a 3.8 bore to work around....
3) open up exhaust manifolds, or get as close to headers as possible
4) redo the timing on the ignition system, since its an ECM controlled distributor, it shouldnt be hard?
5) rejet the Dualjet carb, if i dont swap out the intake manifold/carb set up to flow more A/F
6) custom lightweight 181 LK9 pistons for more revving, deck the block for more compression, into 9.2:1 or so from 8.45:1 stock
7) if i should choose to, and can save up enough, or get a job by then, TA Street Eliminator heads (they flow enough to warrant a 4 barrel upgrade, theoretically?)

now..I have a friend who;s on Cardomain and another forum, he currently have done turbo set ups on the following engines, 3.0 LK9, Draw-Through turbo, with TBI modification, LG3 turbo in his DD, 2.8L chevy v6 with turbo, another LG3 type turbo, at the cheapest route, with quality (currently at $700-900 plus car cost)..he thinks the mods #1-5 described above would be enough to push me closer to 200 HP on NA, with pump gas (91 octane or so)...at higher revs, and be stock appearing...until i can acquire a draw-through turbo set up, since i happen to like the carb look lol.....opinions? (should i just do the TA heads on a LG3 SFI block and work around the whole intake/computer thing?)

 

[charlief1]

has anyone else attempted to build the measly little Buick 181/3.0L carbureted engines found in the FWD X-cars and A-cars in 1982-1985?
I'm saving up to buy a particular 1982 Oldsmobile Ciera 2 door, which is currently equipped with the LK9 engine....as far as my info on these engines go; I am interested in the posisbility of this build with the following steps after getting it to be drivable and running good
1) intake/head port matching and opening up air flow; maybe upgrade to 4bbl Q jet....
2) roller cam/lifter swap, not sure which cam yet, since i have a 2.66 stroke and a 3.8 bore to work around....
3) open up exhaust manifolds, or get as close to headers as possible
4) redo the timing on the ignition system, since its an ECM controlled distributor, it shouldnt be hard?
5) rejet the Dualjet carb, if i dont swap out the intake manifold/carb set up to flow more A/F
6) custom lightweight 181 LK9 pistons for more revving, deck the block for more compression, into 9.2:1 or so from 8.45:1 stock
7) if i should choose to, and can save up enough, or get a job by then, TA Street Eliminator heads (they flow enough to warrant a 4 barrel upgrade, theoretically?)

now..I have a friend who;s on Cardomain and another forum, he currently have done turbo set ups on the following engines, 3.0 LK9, Draw-Through turbo, with TBI modification, LG3 turbo in his DD, 2.8L chevy v6 with turbo, another LG3 type turbo, at the cheapest route, with quality (currently at $700-900 plus car cost)..he thinks the mods #1-5 described above would be enough to push me closer to 200 HP on NA, with pump gas (91 octane or so)...at higher revs, and be stock appearing...until i can acquire a draw-through turbo set up, since i happen to like the carb look lol.....opinions? (should i just do the TA heads on a LG3 SFI block and work around the whole intake/computer thing?)

What you're planning sounds neat but the crank is not intended for a turbo. You''d be much better off if you went out and found the parts to make it a 3.8. If the car has the original TH125 tranny in it you'll smoke it in a heart beat.

As far as the dual jet, it's electronic so there's no way to rejet it. If you'd like a better idea go to the Hybred forum and look for a thread about putting a 3.8 in a Century FWD. He did an amazing job it's fast. Turbo mouting and everything. Good luck.

 

[CamoDeafie]

been doing some research. Turbokinetics in the hybrid forum started with a 3.0L in his 84 century FWD, turbo'd it with a late 70s 3.8 turbo carb set up, he also modified a truck TBI to work on the system...
anyways... Ive been trying to find information on deck heights of the LK9 and the LN7 engines, as apparently the LK9 has the same deck height as the LG3 3.8s but different strokes and cylinder sleeves are shorter than the LG3 3.8s...however, the LN7 3.0 the MFI unit used in the N bodies and H bodies is the short deck version...yet they have same stroke, same pin offset...different piston profiles...I was wondering if i were to use the LK9 pistons (comp height of 1.808, flat top) in the LN7 block, would my CR increase by a bit from 9.0? I mean, the LN7 stock piston is 1.805 height, with a shallow dish of .160 inches depth and 2.6 inch diameter...whereas the LK9 is flat top, no dish....
basically I am looking to put a Holley 4bbl vacuum secondary, with approrporate 3.8 manifold onto a LN7 block, using either a ported stock head set or ported 3.8 heads (which 3.8 heads are the best for increasing lift and airflow?) and installing a hydraulic roller lifter cam in there for higher revving.... opinions? I really want to stay with a 181 engine just to see how much more power it can go before i need to get to a 4 speed 3.8 combo lol

 

[charlief1]

The problem with using a taller PCH on the piston is that it will come out of the top of the cylinder. To get more compression out of the 3.0 you'll need some custom pistons made. The early 3.0 pistons in a 3.8 L will yeild better compressoin but going the other way will reduce compression. If you really want to do something, use the 3.0 long rods in a 3.8 and have some custom pistons made. The longer rod will decrease the PCH of the piston and make for better quench as well as more bottom end and higher torque on the bottom.

 

[usetaboost]

I've seen that century with the carbed turbo setup. From what I understand is was practicallya bolt on and go (aside fromt he pistons I'm sure). If I had the stuff lying around and it wasn't a DD, and I had money to piss away, I'd do it. I don't see the trans lasting without some mods though and you would also have to get a converter for it. By the time you would get all this done and get past the BS, you could get a gbody and do it probably cheaper. THe resale value would be much better also.

I would consider intake and exhaust mods. that's it.

 

[CamoDeafie]

well heres the little thing...
the LN7 3.0 MFI piston has a .003" shorter piston compression height, and a dish but same stroke, same bore, same pin offset distance from bottom of piston; the LK9 piston has the 1.808" PCH, same bore, same pin offset, and flat top....now, I still havent found the data for the LN7's deck height compared to the LK9's deck height, but I was informed by turbokinetic that his LK9 engine's deck height was the same as the LG3 SFI 3.8 engine, with the cylinder sleeves being the difference, he's also done a comparision of various combinations of LG3 and 3.0 piston/rods/cranks and found that most wouldnt work in the 3.0 block, or 3.8 block due to the rods and cranks, as well as the cylinder sleeves, thats why i was looking at using the pistons from a later 3.0 since its a lower deck version of the engine, i dont know how much lower the deck is, which is the main issue. that the MFI engine does 125 HP with 9.0 CR with a decked block and .003 lower PCH with dish, makes me wonder if its possible to increae CR without needing too much machining (would be custom pistons in any case though)

in Salem, i have not been able to find a G body for cheap lol. Im trying to get this 82 Olds for $400 or 500. besides, I want something different but still Buick v6 powered

 

[nhra1082]

I race the 181 V6 in an NHRA Stock Eliminator 1985 Grand Am. These engines will run great when they breath. Mine turns 7500 RPM regularly with a good balance job, stock cast pistons, and an indexed crank. Car runs 13's all day long. TH 125 can work too. I have 300 runs on mine. Good luck with your plans.

 

[CamoDeafie]

awesome, have pics of your set up? the 82 Olds is still available and parked; so I am talking my dad into letting me buy a couple of his firearms and selling them on Gunbroker and see if i can make up the difference in the money and possibly start a small on-the-side business.....so i can buy these parts for the Olds 181 engine

 

[usetaboost]

So in theory, shouldn't you be able to pull out the 3.0 and install a 3.8 from a fwd car that is equipped with the 8445 heads and throw in turbo pistons, slap on the car turbo setup and run with it? Sounds like it should run to me

 

[CamoDeafie]

it depends. i was thinking of raising CR, slapping a 4.1 intake manifold, the 8445 heads, and cam it, then see how it goes before i decide to turbo it....if i wanna turbo it. i mean, if im gonna turbo it, i;'d want a 4 speed and 3.8 in there by then

 

[usetaboost]

If you wanna turbo it do it right away, no sense in pissin money away on n/a stuff. Make a decision before you spend

 

[CamoDeafie]

well heres what i was thinking; NA the 3.0 and run it, maybe take a few decades off it and run it completely mechanical (no ESC, no ECM/CCC, no sensors) do it by mechanical and old school stuff....this would mean ripping out the entire engine bay's jumble of wiring and vac hoses, then getting just whats needed and learning to work the carb and timing and distributor....I know I'd probably be better off using a 30s hot rod to learn but they arent cheap around here >.< (i might end up keeping the CCC and ESC if it means less danger of detonation and screwing up the timing...)

 

[CamoDeafie]

OK its still around; and Im still pricing things out....lol. I know I know; if i wanna go faster, spend more $$ and time well. doing some more research on this particular car..it seems for 1982, base model with 6 cylinder, it weighed 2,666 pounds at the most for that year....very light for a "midsize" car with a buick v6..now i'm wondering if i can find a 1984-1985 FWD 3.8 block and start with that; how much more zip would it have if i build it NA like the other 231s here? the 3.0 is rated at 110HP for 1982 with the 2 barrel dualjet carburetor; I'm aware that its possible to get to 150, maybe 175HP with head work and porting, cam change....not expecting much from this little engine, but if the 3.0 is basically a 3.8 block with shorter cylinder sleeves, then maybe its more beneficial to me to get a FWD 3.8 and build it instead? (if im still gonna buy a engine block to build while keeping the stocker in the car for the time being....go big or go home, right?)

 

[charlief1]

Yes and no. The original 3.0 had the same deck height and then it was changed to a lower one for both the 3.8 and 3.0 FWD engines. Any of the 3.8 FWD blocks will work as long as it's not a Series II.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Yes and no. The original 3.0 had the same deck height and then it was changed to a lower one for both the 3.8 and 3.0 FWD engines. Any of the 3.8 FWD blocks will work as long as it's not a Series II.

correct, the 82 Olds has the LK9 3.0, I believe it was the first year of the 3.0 v6...and again, correct about the 3.8 v6, Im looking for the 84-85 FWD engine if complete with carb manifold, if not, then theres the LG3 blocks (up to 1989 or 1990..before the on center LN3 bored blocks..) which uses the same stuff as the SFI RWD engines and presumably will work with carb manifolds for the RWD buick v6s..I think there are differences between the older 3.8s and the 3800 pre-series 1 blocks and Series 1 engines...?

 

[charlief1]

The only difference between the original FWD engines and the 3800's are the heads so all you'll need to do is change the heads on it to the earlier design. Water passages are the same on all of them. I comparied the Series II head gasket to one of the RWD gaskets and they're identical.

 

[CamoDeafie]

really. I thought the LN3s had on center bore spacing versus the LG3's off center bore spacing?now im even more confused I'd rather play this safe and go with whats proven to be compatible tho this is for a car that'll still weight just a hair under 3K pounds with me in it; I dont expect earth shattering performance even with a NA build, mainly due to the stock 3 speed (will have to do until i get a good 4 speed non E trans for it)

 

[charlief1]

The bore spacing isn't an issue because the top of the block didn't change, just the position of the bores in relation to the crank. I'd love to see someone make an intake for the off center blocks with the Series II heads. Talk about a bolt on from H-ll.

 

[CamoDeafie]

hum. now theres an idea. didnt Holden make a 1 or 2 pc aluminum intake for their Series 2 or 1 holden V6s based on the Buick 3.8s?

 

[charlief1]

I haven't found any kind of info but if you do please post it. It would be one of the best upgrades for the cars and make some great power for us.