Called Turbonetics and Innovative regarding a T-70BB. Good info inside! What to get?

[gnx7]

Of note on this thread:

All my statements may not be accurate... this is what I remember being explained to me.

I called Turbonetics yesterday to discuss a T-70BB turbo with P-trim housing for a THDP. They said their design features a ceramic ball bearing on the compressor side of the shaft and a solid bearing (brass I think) on the exhaust side of the shaft. The exhaust wheel is made from INCONNEL (sp?) which allows EGT's about 150* higher (up to 1800-1900*) than conventional metals used in the wheels (maybe explain melted exhaust wheels from other vendors). This "70" should support around 785hp and the unique bearing/washer on the exhaust side can withstand much more thrust load than conventional non BB turbos and more than dual BB turbos they stated. Price was around $1600-1700 (can't remember)

Called Innovative Turbo today and asked the same ?'s about the same size turbo. They stated they are the only ones offering dual ceramic BB turbos and they spool quicker than conventional turbos and faster than the Turbonetics unit also which is a single BB.

*Of note: Innovative rep said the ball bearing on the exhaust side spun at 1/10 the speed of the compressor side (gear reduction or what?) and therefore had 1/10 the thrust load on it. This to me didn't make sense to me and I would like some input from you guys (Jack Cotton etc?). I also brought up Turbonetics design and they straight up said theirs is better.

How much faster spool up... I don't know.... but they said it was noticeable (marketing ploy?). They also feature INCONNEL exhaust wheels and their price was approx $2200 with a polished compressor housing included (no charge/option).

So is it worth $500 more for the dual BB setup or a Turbonetics style single BB setup?

Does the Turbonetics offering really allow for higher thrust loads without damage vs. the Innovative? Does this really come into play with our automatic transmissions (manual tranny cars normally need a blowoff valve to avoid compressor surge)?

BTW- both company reps said they have never had one of these turbos come back with damage related to thrust load on the bearings.

HELP- I need help deciding in which one to get.

Please chime in with the following:
1) whether you have a BB turbo or not and which one
2) how many miles you have on the unit and any failures yet
3) how you drive the car (% beating on it with mileage vs. cruising)
4) impression of whether you need a BB setup or not and how your spool up is with your particular convertor.

For the $500 difference in price.... I hope the justification is big... because I really wonder how much faster spool up is with a single ball bearing style vs. dual ball bearing setup.

This thread should help to start some useful info being thrown around and hopefully help us get closer to finding out the "mysteries of the BB turbo " part VI.

Thanks,

GNX7
9's in my 2700lb car in 2003 on a T-70BB?

 

[salvageV6]

I don't have a ball bearing turbo but if I was to get one I would get the turbonetics from Jack Cotton.

I saw the CPT66 work extremely well on Scott's street/strip car, locally.

Bought a rebuilt non-bb '62 to save money however since (2) built trannys in 2 months cost me a ton of money.

Jack was very helpful when pricing. I'd value his opinion.

I still may buy one yet for the other car.

 

[tazgn]

I have a T-72 BB turbo on my car. After frying the bearings in me TE-62 twice, I went BB. I only have about 600 miles on the turbo over the past 1.5-2 years, but not a wimper from the turbo. And as far a spool-up, if those who have never seen a BB turbo in action, GOD!!!! My T-72 spools WAYYYYYYY faster than my TE-62 ever dreamed of, and nearly as fast as the stocker with a 3200 stall converter. My converter is advertised as a 3800 stall, but I think it's closer to 3600. I honestly think the T-72 'BB' would be streetable with the stock converter. Since I drove the 62 with the stock converter for a little while. If you have the money for a Ball Bearing turbo, SPEND IT!!!! I don't really know the advantages of the dual BB setup (never seen one), but my single is like a wet dream.

Derrick

 

[Two Lane]

Thanks GNX 7

Thanks very much for initiating this thread and sharing the info you have gathered thus far.

My prediction is 2003 will be the year that a new progressive paradigm is established re: turbo selection.

Threads like these are wonderful opportunities for everyone to share/learn/grow in the collection, discussion, & dissemination
of the available technical and experiential data.

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

even with my car way out of tune it spools the 70 up real fast.

I couldnt picture driving it if it spooled any faster

I just looked at a direct scan file I did last week where I floored it from a steady 27 mph roll in 1st gear and on direct scan from the time the tps went up it took less than 1 second to hit the fuel shutoff at 6000 rpm on my street chip

it is not ball bearing and I have a 9-11 converter rated at 3400 but it stalls well above that

most all turbine wheels out are made from INCONNEL but from info I gather it looks as if the gt350-355 wheel in the 51-52 turbo is not made of INCONNEL but never got enough info on that to question it.

guy who did my direct scan recording for me says my 70 with 9-11 converter spools alot faster than his 51 turbo and orange stripe

my turbo is a John Craig unit with p-trim exaust and garrett housing

 

[Reggie West]

I have seen a 80 ball bearing from Cotton work very well. My Dad uses one on his Stage 2 car. I suggested using a ball bearing turbo with this car to solve one problem. When you get to the point where you are trying to go 9's it takes a big turbo to get you there in a car that weighs 3600 pounds. You end up using a very high stall converter to spin the turbo.

We found 3800 to be the right stall speed for us. It is a symptom of the go fast disease. You want to go faster, bigger turbo requires more stall to spool it.

The ball bearing set ups negate this. They do spool faster than a conventional thrust bearing turbo will. There is no question that it spools faster. I have noticed with this one that the turbo is making boost at 3800 rpms on the money. There is no lag with this combo and that is what you want.

Now I cant tell you if a dual bb turbo is noticably faster than a single bb. Rick Head is pretty smart and he used to work for Turbonetics so he knows what he is talking about.

As for which way to go, I would offer this. If you are building a stock block motor with ported heads I would say do not buy a ball bearing turbo. You can achieve the goals you are looking for with a standard thrust bearing and a matched torque converter.

Now if you are wanting to go 9's in a 2700 pound car, the deciding factor should be this. How big of a turbo are you talking about? Anything over a 70 turbo you should seriously consider a ball bearing set up. The advantage to this will be you can keep the stall speed around 3000 ( which is relatively sane ) and it will move down the track very well.

 

[gnx7]

TTT

this is a hot topic for many of us..... let's keep it going!

How much difference in spool up and longevity is there in a dual BB vs. a single BB design turbo?

Is the cost tradeoff worth it?

Reggie- I plan on using a "70BB" from someone combined with Champion ported irons, PTE-218R, 1.65 T&D's, and either LS1 MAF with Trans+ or ME-16 both with 72's or 83's. Car weighs 2700lbs and I plan to run 91 and alchy all the time with either an AC LU or NLU (I have both) and plan to test both.

-GNX7

 

[Intercooler]

I see totally how a dual BB would spool faster. Having both sides BB will make rotation just that much easier than shaft/bushing. The only problem I hear about and don't know all the details is the dual BB being able to handle the thrust load. Supposedly the singles hold up better to this but I don't know the details. Any PTE or Turbonetics guru want to add anything on this?
At $2.5 a dual BB seems like a high priced option. The single seems more in-line with most of us. On the other hand with a well matched convertor even a 70 standard bushing turbo is a handfull on the street if you use a P-trim. IMO the BB turbos are best suited for all out or extreme racing.....meaning 70's and larger.

 

[Two Lane]

NEWEST TURBOS

It's almost February, so hopefully PTE will have their website updated momentarily to include the Garrett GT-series turbos.

There are additional improvements in the very latest turbos
in addition to the ball-bearing feature.

We honestly need an ongoing comparative discussion of the major brands by their reps and/or vendors---and/or by members using the different units.

Major thanks to all replies thus far!!

 

[RealFastV6]

Of note: Innovative rep said the ball bearing on the exhaust side spun at 1/10 the speed of the compressor side (gear reduction or what?) and therefore had 1/10 the thrust load on it. This to me didn't make sense to me and I would like some input from you guys (Jack Cotton etc?).

The compressor side is actually a (the) thrust bearing. If you look at a turbo diagram taken apart, you'll see that its because the bearing surface is much further away from the centerline of the shaft. The exaust side isn't a thrust bearing, it actually goes around the shaft, and is much closer to the centerline.

Basically, it sees the same RPMs, but its a smaller circle so it doesn't move as fast.

...or maybe I made that all up.