Can I squeeze a 12.00 out of this?

[topfuel]

This used to be a 12.70 car, then I did the following:
New trans and convertor, power plate, timing chain,
cold air setup and 2-3 lbs boost increase.
After the changes, it ran a couple 12.40's, and
a 12.39@106, 1.64 short time and 7.81@ 86.3 in the 1/8th.
The car was laying down at around 1000ft, running way lean
at the big end, and I found I actually lost 3-4 mph from previous
12.70 time slips.
New parts on the bench ready to install are:
009 Injectors
MaxEffort 16 position
Valve springs
EGT meter
Parker valve for boost control

How many of you have gone 12.00 with the stock turbo/intercooler/downpipe? I want to squeeze everything
I can from this combo, and when the turbo finally gives up,
then I'll upgrade to bigger stuff.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[wants a tr]

i know a guy that went 11.90s on stock ic/heads/turbo/converter. it can be done. all it takes is tuning and a nice wind at ur back from the man upstairs. i'll be happy when my car goes 12.20s on stock stuff. it can be done. HTH

 

[blackbuick87]

You should have no problem with your short times and the 009's. What is your timing set at on the ME, what fuel and what is your total boost? I would not exceed 22-23psi.

 

[topfuel]

11.90's on stock stuff?

That would be
I would be honored to join the 11 sec club, I've got a lot of
tuning to do and maybe, just maybe I can join.

The car is set on kill all the time and runs on 110 octane.
Steve and I will have a final decision on the timing for the
ME probably today, I know were going to run high timing,
28* and higher. I'll step up to 116 octane next time at the
track, and give it all she can handle.
I've never gone over 21 psi boost, I read 21-22 is about
all you can squeeze out of a stocker. I'll probably start out
around 18psi with the higher timing and 116, set the ME to
rich and tune from there.

 

[KEVINS]

I'm also close to being a 11 second member but I only have a few more weeks before the season is over and it doesn't look like I'm going to make it to the track again

ks

 

[fly89gta]

Originally posted by wants a tr
i know a guy that went 11.90s on stock ic/heads/turbo/converter. it can be done. all it takes is tuning and a nice wind at ur back from the man upstairs. i'll be happy when my car goes 12.20s on stock stuff. it can be done. HTH

yeah i know someone that ran 11.9 with the stock stuff mentioned above, in fact it was Steve(TTA850) though he drove that thing like he stole it, poor thing was begging for mercy

 

[UNGN]

Lock the converter and/or taller tires. You are likely turning over 5 grand through the traps @ 106. That is a lot to ask of a stock long block.

 

[Sinful6]

Also, pull off that front sway bar!

 

[TRENT THOMPSON]

12.01 @ 112.79
with headwind

 

[Dean]

At the risk of being chastised, I would sell the 42.5s before you put them in (higher resell) and go to 50s and upgrade the supply fuel line. If you are willing to go to a modified ECM, go with 72+ injectors.

As UNGN stated, lock the converter or use taller tires to lower the top end RPMs.

Also consider saving your pennies for a FMIC.

 

[topfuel]

Forgot to mention I did pull the sway bar and I do lock the
convertor in 3rd.
When the 26x10's are done, I'll go to the 28's and settle the
top end rpm a little, I like how 28's fill the wheel opening too.
As far as injectors, 009's were better for the budget right now.

I've owned this car for a long time and plan on keeping it
for a long time to come. Bigger injectors, turbo's, front mounts,
cylinder heads ect... are all in my future no doubt, but for now
I need to work within a reasonable budget to keep the wife
quiet lol

Thanks for the info
Planning on one more trip to the track before the season ends,
I'll post the results in a couple of weeks...

 

[forcefed3.8's]

50's are not much bigger than 009's. They are really 46lbs, not 50, and they tend to lock up when really pushed (high fp). Stick with 009's. They will go 10's.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by forcefed3.8's
50's are not much bigger than 009's. They are really 46lbs, not 50, and they tend to lock up when really pushed (high fp). Stick with 009's. They will go 10's.

True, they aren't much bigger, though who wouldn't want 10%more fuel? As to locking up the 50s with high pressure, you would run out of pump volume LONG before the pressure would become a problem. Considering the pressure differential in the plenum negates any boost setting, you would need a base FP setting of ~90psi to creat the "lock up" problem. At 90 psi with ~13.0 volts, a GSS340 pump is moving ~33 gallons per hour. Gas weighs ~6#/gal, so that's ~200pph (at the pump). Give 20% for frictional losses to get to the injector, and you get ~25pph to each cylinder... not enough to feed a stock injector. The moral of the story: Don't run absurdly high fuel pressure, and don't refer to it as a reason to exclude a perfectly fine injector.

BTW, I also recall folks not liking 009s just a short while ago (too rich on the bottom, tip in stumble, etc.), and that all seems to have gone away for the most part. I didn't really have those problems with my 009s... ran them for ~2 years. Funny, the injector didn't change.



I understand the cost point, though, but if you look around you can find used sets for very good prices like I did. My change from 009 42.5s to MSD 50s cost me ~$50, and another $50 for the chip upgrade.


:-Dean

 

[forcefed3.8's]

I don't see the need to pay so much more for a 50 that really won't go much farther than a 009. The 009 is alot more linear at short pulses since it is a disc type. That was the rich/ tip in stumble problem. The answer to all of that was chip programming. There is nothing wrong with high fuel pressure, just get a chip with less on the bottom. Why pay more $ when you can do the same with more fp and a new chip?

 

[GNandGS]

50's are easier to tune for. ".", and if you look at prices they make sense.

Higher FP, lower volume. I say why go 009?

S

 

[Dean]

I don't consider ~$150 that much more (new), but, that is just my opinion. I'll take all the fuel injector I can get with the stock drivers.

Nothing wrong with high fuel pressure?!? OK. You can live by that motto, if you so choose. FYI, here's some Walbro GSS 340 data (from Walbro... your results may vary). This does not include frictional losses to get the fuel from the pump to the injector, which is not a pretty path.

@ 13.5v
psi - gph
00 - 84
10 - 82
20 - 78
30 - 73
40 - 68
50 - 64
60 - 59
70 - 55
80 - 46
90 - 38
100 - 19
110 - 9

@ 12v:
psi - gph
00 - 76
10 - 73
20 - 68
30 - 63
40 - 59
50 - 54
60 - 50
70 - 45
80 - 37
90 - 27
100 - 11
110 - 1

Hmmm. Looks to me like the higher the pressure, the lower the volume. Wanna crank up the FP on the 009s? Go right ahead, it's not my engine. BTW, a friend of mine was having problems running lean (with significant KR) at the top end with 009s. Base FP was set at 60+. I convinced her to drop it to 43 and give it a shot. Waddayaknow, the KR pretty much went away and wasn't running lean.


:-Dean

 

[blackbuick87]

Dean I see your point, I am curious as to where that data came from.
However we need to keep top fuels' final goal in mind. If he wants to run high 11's 009's are fine, many have taken those injectors deeper than that and lived to tell the tale. However for consistent mid to low 11's he should look into the 50's as you suggest.

 

[turbobitt]

I've seen people run high 11's with stock cam/turbo/intercooler and key seems to be keeping boost high, rpm's low, 28" tall tires and lock up that converter.
Allan Gorneault

 

[Dean]

blackbuick87 - The data came from Walbro's website many, many months ago. It may still be there. I sent them an e-mail a while back to get more data at other voltages, but never heard from them. No big surprize there.

On the 009s, yep he can use them. It is just when I saw they were on his list of "New parts on the bench ready to install" that I suggested he go to the 50s now, which will take him further later. Skipping some of the smaller incremental steps now will save $$ (should make his wife happy... er). In fact, with the talk of bigger injectors, turbo, FM, heads, etc. some time in his future, and squeezing everything out of his combo(s), I'd suggest the modified ECM / low impedance injectors now!

I don't plan on squeezing everything out of mine, so the 50s should do me fine for a long time. topfuel, on the other hand, intends on going further.


turbo bitt - 28" tires - yep. With my 26" tires I see 5300 rpms, locked. I'm looking forward to seeing what 28s will do.


:-Dean

 

[topfuel]

went to the track yesterday!

12.02@109.89 with a 1.59 short time and 7.58@89.05 in the
1/8th.
Conditions were ideal, 48 degrees on a sunny day.

I have to take a moment to thank everyone on this board
for all the technical support, I've learned quite a bit about
my car from you guys.
Next I need to thank Steve Y from MaxEffort
His product is incredible, and the follow up support is
priceless. I would recommend the MaxEffort to anyone
who wants to get the most out of their combo, adjustability
is the key. Its also nice to run 110 and 116 fuel with no O2
sensor failures anymore, its out of the picture now.

My car is going into storage soon, but I'm hopeful that next
year may bring me the "hard to get with a stock turbo"
11 second time slip. I'll probably do some turbo/intercooler
porting in the off season, and who knows what else...

Mike