CAS intercoolers
- Thread starter Otto J
- Start date
Justin we've beat the core thing to death already and you still think that the less efficient bar and plate cores are better.
Lets do this, compare efficiency per dollar. Atleast this way it is more cut and dry. V1 at $1000, and Pte at $980.
Look at TurboTR
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/sh...ght=best front mount intercooler&pagenumber=3
Look for QuickT in the middle
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/sh...ght=best front mount intercooler&pagenumber=2
We already have a real flow chart from CAS. The other units are playing with the smoke machine and talk a good game.
Until we see anything from the flow tunnel from Cotton and Pte
(both spearco cores) it is all speculation on their Ic's. And the Cas numbers are getting backed up by the Mat temps compared to the other ics.
Klhammet, go with the V1. You have a T 70 turbo, and I have a feeling your going to suffer from, MBNM disease, My Buick Needs More. So for the dough, just get the bad boy and be done. I bet you will someday go alittle faster than expected. We all do with this car.
Lets do this, compare efficiency per dollar. Atleast this way it is more cut and dry. V1 at $1000, and Pte at $980.
Look at TurboTR
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/sh...ght=best front mount intercooler&pagenumber=3
Look for QuickT in the middle
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/sh...ght=best front mount intercooler&pagenumber=2
We already have a real flow chart from CAS. The other units are playing with the smoke machine and talk a good game.
Until we see anything from the flow tunnel from Cotton and Pte
(both spearco cores) it is all speculation on their Ic's. And the Cas numbers are getting backed up by the Mat temps compared to the other ics.
Klhammet, go with the V1. You have a T 70 turbo, and I have a feeling your going to suffer from, MBNM disease, My Buick Needs More. So for the dough, just get the bad boy and be done. I bet you will someday go alittle faster than expected. We all do with this car.
RealFastV6
Plays with Trucks
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
Well, I dont know what to tell you Spoolinup. You'd better inform the rest of the world of your findings because EVERYTHING I've read so far has said that Bar and Plate is more efficient then Tube and Fin (Extruded or not). Show me different. A magazine article... something, anything...
http://www.are.com.au/techtalk/intecoolersMR.htm
Steve Wood
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
http://www.are.com.au/techtalk/intecoolersMR.htm#Bar and Plate or Tube and Fin?
From the above
<<<<<Core Construction
The most consistent method of charge air heat transference is Extruded tube. This is because the aluminium is forced through the extrusion die during manufacture, giving a 100% wall to wall bond as there is no join in the material. The next most consistent is the "U" shaped fin, as it is stamped with a flat surface to fuse onto the tube wall, giving up too 30 times the surface area to bond to the tube over the least consistent, folded fin, which is the most common in bar & plate, & all that's seen in plate & fin cores. We have seen intercoolers where the tolerance of the fin fold width is too narrow & so the fin didn't fuse too the tube wall, resulting in little heat transference in that area. Also the fins can bunch up, leaving a gap either side, very inefficient. Another reason for the difference in the price of cores - quality control or sloppy manufacture.
The most efficient method of Charge air heat entrapment is folded fin, because louvered fin configurations &/or very close fin per inch ratios can be utilized, resulting in higher surface areas to "grab" the heat. Note that these also cause the greatest pressure drop. It really comes down to manufacturing quality & specifications between folded fin & extruded tube efficiency as they can give similar results. Some folded fins have holes to break up the air flow, some have louvered fins to channel the air & some are flat but they usually have higher fpi. ratios. Extruded tube dividing walls are either flat or have ridges running length ways for increased surface area.
One last thing to remember is the strength & repairability of the cores. The weakest core by a very big margin is the plate & fin core, we get allot of these through our workshop (including oil coolers of the same construction), but they are relative easy to repair as they mostly crack in the centre of the end tank concertina. They have to be hydrogen brazed as the heat from TIG welding is too concentrated, usually resulting in a weep at one/both ends of the welds. Bar & plate cores are weaker than tube & fin & the other worry is that Garrett paperwork says that it is acceptable to have leaks in the core, as long as it doesn't exceed 4 psi drop from 30 psi in 15 secs !!! We may have had a leak in a tube & fin core over the years, but no new intercooler has ever left our shop with a weep, let alone leak. Bar & plate cores are very difficult to repair leaks anywhere on them, but tube & fin are only hard when the leak is in near the centre of the core. This advice is from our shop, that is one of the few set up too repair properly as well as fabricate new assemblies - in fact there is not another shop set up anywhere near as comprehensive as us, for repairs !
COOLING CAPACITIES (following are two very contentious paragraphs)
As a general rule, with a level playing field (manufacturing quality, both fpi's, tube size, thickness, & a hundred other variables), bar & plate intercooler cores dissipate more BTU's than plate tube & fin & then tube & fin cores - per square centimetre. Please stop, go back & read that sentence again, as it is the most often asked question, but the most misquoted answer of all time. Please also note that it is very easy to change just one specification of a core to make it better than the other two, & it must be remembered right now that heat dissipation is only one parameter of overall intercooler performance. If there is enough area & volume available, I quite often recommend a tube & fin core to do the job, as it will get the temperature down too within very close of the other two, but at less pressure drop & less chance of leakage.>>>>>
It seems that it is not as simple as picking one parameter and dwelling upon that.
I also notice that Spearco now is offering extruded tube ics...perhaps there is something to the technology after all.
From the above
<<<<<Core Construction
The most consistent method of charge air heat transference is Extruded tube. This is because the aluminium is forced through the extrusion die during manufacture, giving a 100% wall to wall bond as there is no join in the material. The next most consistent is the "U" shaped fin, as it is stamped with a flat surface to fuse onto the tube wall, giving up too 30 times the surface area to bond to the tube over the least consistent, folded fin, which is the most common in bar & plate, & all that's seen in plate & fin cores. We have seen intercoolers where the tolerance of the fin fold width is too narrow & so the fin didn't fuse too the tube wall, resulting in little heat transference in that area. Also the fins can bunch up, leaving a gap either side, very inefficient. Another reason for the difference in the price of cores - quality control or sloppy manufacture.
The most efficient method of Charge air heat entrapment is folded fin, because louvered fin configurations &/or very close fin per inch ratios can be utilized, resulting in higher surface areas to "grab" the heat. Note that these also cause the greatest pressure drop. It really comes down to manufacturing quality & specifications between folded fin & extruded tube efficiency as they can give similar results. Some folded fins have holes to break up the air flow, some have louvered fins to channel the air & some are flat but they usually have higher fpi. ratios. Extruded tube dividing walls are either flat or have ridges running length ways for increased surface area.
One last thing to remember is the strength & repairability of the cores. The weakest core by a very big margin is the plate & fin core, we get allot of these through our workshop (including oil coolers of the same construction), but they are relative easy to repair as they mostly crack in the centre of the end tank concertina. They have to be hydrogen brazed as the heat from TIG welding is too concentrated, usually resulting in a weep at one/both ends of the welds. Bar & plate cores are weaker than tube & fin & the other worry is that Garrett paperwork says that it is acceptable to have leaks in the core, as long as it doesn't exceed 4 psi drop from 30 psi in 15 secs !!! We may have had a leak in a tube & fin core over the years, but no new intercooler has ever left our shop with a weep, let alone leak. Bar & plate cores are very difficult to repair leaks anywhere on them, but tube & fin are only hard when the leak is in near the centre of the core. This advice is from our shop, that is one of the few set up too repair properly as well as fabricate new assemblies - in fact there is not another shop set up anywhere near as comprehensive as us, for repairs !
COOLING CAPACITIES (following are two very contentious paragraphs)
As a general rule, with a level playing field (manufacturing quality, both fpi's, tube size, thickness, & a hundred other variables), bar & plate intercooler cores dissipate more BTU's than plate tube & fin & then tube & fin cores - per square centimetre. Please stop, go back & read that sentence again, as it is the most often asked question, but the most misquoted answer of all time. Please also note that it is very easy to change just one specification of a core to make it better than the other two, & it must be remembered right now that heat dissipation is only one parameter of overall intercooler performance. If there is enough area & volume available, I quite often recommend a tube & fin core to do the job, as it will get the temperature down too within very close of the other two, but at less pressure drop & less chance of leakage.>>>>>
It seems that it is not as simple as picking one parameter and dwelling upon that.
I also notice that Spearco now is offering extruded tube ics...perhaps there is something to the technology after all.
RealFastV6
Plays with Trucks
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
So...
It cools almost as good as Bar and Plate, but has slightly less static pressure drop.
It cools almost as good as Bar and Plate, but has slightly less static pressure drop.
Steve Wood
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
That is what that part says....If you read the entire page, it becomes a very complex subject-certainly not a black and white issue...in the end, it is easy to begin to understand why most real world testing is inconclusive. There are so many variables in the construction and utilization...mortals like me are not going to have a clue.
The Radius Kid
Active Member
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2002
I guess what i said in the last thread on this subject still holds:
1.If the price is right
2.If it works for you[does the job]
3.If it doesn't cause you any grief.....
Use it and enjoy.
1.If the price is right
2.If it works for you[does the job]
3.If it doesn't cause you any grief.....
Use it and enjoy.
Spoolinup, forgive me, I don't know your name..sign your posts ;P
Anways, what you say is true. Some people will just listen to others based on opinions and the "so, it's gotta be better because I am running it" rationale. Tony is the only one out there to put his time and money into getting these numbers and providing them for the public to see. Maybe others have done this and not published them because they don't compete w/the CAS units?? or most likely, not done it at all.
If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts. --Albert Einstein
Anways, what you say is true. Some people will just listen to others based on opinions and the "so, it's gotta be better because I am running it" rationale. Tony is the only one out there to put his time and money into getting these numbers and providing them for the public to see. Maybe others have done this and not published them because they don't compete w/the CAS units?? or most likely, not done it at all.
If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts. --Albert Einstein
RealFastV6
Plays with Trucks
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
Joe, let me get this straight, yesterday you were dead set on the fact that CAS used some amazing new technology (the same technology Kenworth uses in some truck intercoolers) that made it vastly superior to everything else in the world, and today now that you've been shown different you're changing your song to "well they dont have flowcharts"?
Joe, do you have a compressor map for your turbo? Let me ask EVERYBODY something... do you have compressor maps for your turbos? I do. Do you know a thing about compressor maps Joe?
The fact of the matter is, I would bet that less then .01% of the people on this board even GLANCED at a compressor map before they bought they turbos. Does PTE publish compressor maps for their turbos? They wont even tell you what wheels they use... yet, you are now echoing the tune that nobody should buy an intercooler without seeing an efficiency chart?
"Momma always said life was like a box chocolates"...
Right, they still do use superior technology to others out there, nothing has changed in the design since I made my post yesterday..the fact that there are #s out there that back up claims is just another reason to purchase one from CAS..the fact that the materials are superior is just a bonus
Don't know where/why you thought I was changing my song...I'm saying it's just more proof to buy a better product.<<<(the same technology Kenworth uses in some truck intercoolers)
Hrm..Kenworth's make a LOT of heat...must be a reason then that they use this amazing new technology..they must be onto something, Watson!
Oh yea, and CAS does just ICs..kind of like a specialist in the field maybe? Not an "I can do/copy it all and sell it."
Not like going to a chiropractor for a toothache.
RealFastV6
Plays with Trucks
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
Originally posted by jmidolo
Right, they still do use superior technology to others out there, nothing has changed in the design since I made my post yesterday..the fact that there are #s out there that back up claims is just another reason to purchase one from CAS..the fact that the materials are superior is just a bonus
TELL ME about the superior technology Joe. I've been waiting for your expert input here. Did you read any of the intercooling articles that I posted? Do you know anything about what you speak of?
Once again for you, as far as the cores go, the final conclusion seems to be that the Bar and Plate cores have superior cooling, but that the Extrude Tube & Fin cores have slightly less pressure drop and can almost cool as well. Thats a FAR cry from what you're implying.
Actually Joe, Cas does Fabricated Valve Covers, Sheet Metal Intakes, Fuel Rails, Regulators... ummm... last time I checked they even sold Ball Bearing turbos. Visit them on the web at www.chargedair.com. (Probably shouldn't call and tie up Tony's ear though, as he's no-doubt very busy making V4s).
I love your analogies. You're correct again. The people at Spearco know nothing about intercooling. They should liquidate the staff and hire an expert like yourself.
Try to respond with a technical answer this time Joe.
From the link you posted about about folded fin design,
" Note that these also cause the greatest pressure drop"
I've never claimed to be an expert in the subject, I leave that to the people that are, I can only make a decision based on what I read...
Like everything else that gets posted..if you dont' agree with the "god" of the turboworld..you must be wrong.
I don't believe I said the people at Spearco know nothing about ICs..again, you misread, or just made **** up.
" Note that these also cause the greatest pressure drop"
I've never claimed to be an expert in the subject, I leave that to the people that are, I can only make a decision based on what I read...
Like everything else that gets posted..if you dont' agree with the "god" of the turboworld..you must be wrong.
I don't believe I said the people at Spearco know nothing about ICs..again, you misread, or just made **** up.
Justin nice find on the intercooler link. Thats good stuff regardless of who's intercooler you like.
But the things I said months ago about the extruded tube being one HUGE piece of core and efficiency were being backed up there. Also, extruded tube is the best all around player. Believe me, I am sure Dequick knows all of this as well as other intercooler engineers. But the price of cores is tempting to others in business to stay alive.
Also, inlet turbulance starts to hurt pressure drop and efficiency, they are hand in hand. The article did not make that clear in a % or anything, but now just take the CAS chart and the Mat temps in comparison tests and that will start to back it up. Remember, not tube and fin, but extruded tube and fin.
Steve Wood, did you hear about Spearco and the extruded tube on their site? Sounds like the heavies are going to stop getting their name bashed around and play with the big boys. Good, that means better product, competition, and HOPEFULLY the same prices.
None the less, good stuff. The more we know, the better shoppers we become. So get out the coupons, and see if CAS will do a group buy this summer.
But the things I said months ago about the extruded tube being one HUGE piece of core and efficiency were being backed up there. Also, extruded tube is the best all around player. Believe me, I am sure Dequick knows all of this as well as other intercooler engineers. But the price of cores is tempting to others in business to stay alive.
Also, inlet turbulance starts to hurt pressure drop and efficiency, they are hand in hand. The article did not make that clear in a % or anything, but now just take the CAS chart and the Mat temps in comparison tests and that will start to back it up. Remember, not tube and fin, but extruded tube and fin.
Steve Wood, did you hear about Spearco and the extruded tube on their site? Sounds like the heavies are going to stop getting their name bashed around and play with the big boys. Good, that means better product, competition, and HOPEFULLY the same prices.
None the less, good stuff. The more we know, the better shoppers we become. So get out the coupons, and see if CAS will do a group buy this summer.
Steve Wood
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
I meant to point out that it was extruded tube and that it was different. The site I posted compared the aspects of a number of types as well as extruded tube. It is worth a read from the top as it mentions a number of criteria that affect IC performance and made me realize how complex the subject is - no way one can just buy core and build tanks without some background in the theory unless one does not care about being as good as possible.
Yes, I was doing a search on "extruded tube" and found a link to Spearco that talked about their technology and said they "now" had extruded tube cores available.
Yes, I was doing a search on "extruded tube" and found a link to Spearco that talked about their technology and said they "now" had extruded tube cores available.
Steve Wood
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
Here....Spearco says it is the good stuff...makes it sound like they invented it....same words as off the site I posted above....
http://www.turboneticsinc.com/tube_fin_intercoolers.html
http://www.turboneticsinc.com/tube_fin_intercoolers.html
Oh my, the band is playing a cover song and making it appear as if it's theirs.
Read this like Mr. Subliminal would on SNL
They say how it offers an increase in effectiveness (Efficiency), pressure drop, (Spoolup) and is lighter yet stronger(Best of both worlds) . And it offers a leak free junction, (bar and plate leaks)
___________________________________________________
Huh, are these all a comparison to bar and plate?
Well, alteast they are going to offer it.
Well, I am not going to say I told you so, but that Spearco told you so.
Read this like Mr. Subliminal would on SNL
They say how it offers an increase in effectiveness (Efficiency), pressure drop, (Spoolup) and is lighter yet stronger(Best of both worlds) . And it offers a leak free junction, (bar and plate leaks)
___________________________________________________
Huh, are these all a comparison to bar and plate?
Well, alteast they are going to offer it.
Well, I am not going to say I told you so, but that Spearco told you so.
RealFastV6
Plays with Trucks
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
Lots of good info here guys. Keep it comin.
RealFastV6
Plays with Trucks
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
Not at all Spoolinup!! I'm still not sold though. My old school bar and plate intercooler doesn't leak, and the construction of it looks A-O-K to me. (Of couse, I'm not an expert, I just play one on the internet
) I still havent seen anywhere yet that says Extruded Tube&Fun cores cool better though, in fact only the opposite. The only hint of the contrary was on Spearco's site, but again that was only a hint. COME TO THE DARKSIDE, YOU WILL LIKE IT HERE!
BTDT, I like the other side better.
Ive learned a lot so far here about intercoolers and I hope everyone else has also. I'll be interested to hear what Spearco has to say now considering they'll be selling both kinds of cores and maybe shouldn't have a biased opinion anymore. I have an acquaintance at Garrett that I'll be emailing also about the subject as well.
Thank you Spoolinup for being able to discuss this in an intelegent manner without the cheap digs that certain other non-technicaly oriented people felt were required to get a point across.
