CHECK your injectors! E85 injector gunk

[austinibew145]

no additives. i have put 93 in 2 times. all new system.

 

[1outlaw]

no additives. i have put 93 in 2 times. all new system.

Then I would focus on where you are buying and what they are doing if you can find out. Have you pumped any into a perfectly clean GLASS jar at the station to see what color it is? (It will normally be slightly yellow if the gas portion is normal pump gas and perfectly water clear if made with a low sulfur C5 pentane type of natural gasoline- it will be the former one that will have an additive in it). It may be that all of it around you is made with pump gas- if so the variation between stations and your issue will vary according to what terminal additive is used in the gas portion assuming my theory is correct. The E85 should always have perfect clarity- never any murkiness- with any fuel, it should sparkle in bright sunshine- if it does not- it does not meet specifications. Murkiness can come from entrained sediment, water, dissolved gums, additives, etc.

 

[austinibew145]

Then I would focus on where you are buying and what they are doing if you can find out. Have you pumped any into a perfectly clean GLASS jar at the station to see what color it is? (It will normally be slightly yellow if the gas portion is normal pump gas and perfectly water clear if made with a low sulfur C5 pentane type of natural gasoline- it will be the former one that will have an additive in it). It may be that all of it around you is made with pump gas- if so the variation between stations and your issue will vary according to what terminal additive is used in the gas portion assuming my theory is correct. The E85 should always have perfect clarity- never any murkiness- with any fuel, it should sparkle in bright sunshine- if it does not- it does not meet specifications. Murkiness can come from entrained sediment, water, dissolved gums, additives, etc.

I will try the glass jar. I have some in a gas can, in tank, and I will go get some. it always seemed to be clear. is there any way to check the goo to see what it is?

 

[1outlaw]

I do not have access to the type of lab that can test the deposits. The two guys I know of that did have access came up with fuel additive deposits being the most likely culprit since the composition matched tests done on gasolines in the area.

 

[Racetronix]

There's a good article in the January 2011 issue of Hot Rod magazine that discusses the rubber hose breakdown issues caused by E85 and other newer fuel additives. The data in that article backs up the studies done by the "mad scientists" at Turbo Farm West which shows that heat, when combined with E85 is a killer to the old-school style rubber hoses. According to the article, it appears that teflon-based hoses is the way to go.

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/e85-technical-forum/325397-e85-corrosion-issue-not-pretty.html

 

[forcefed86]

I know this is a year old but I thought I’d post my dealings.

For what it’s worth I have had the exact same issues shown in the first few threads on my buick and my eclipse. I believe it is region specific and some sort of additive used in fuels. Possibly MTBE. Also new studies have shown at specific temps and pressures ethanol “gels”. The coating on the injectors is a sticky sap like substance and dissolves very quickly in gasoline. Inlets of injectors are always squeaky clean as is the rest of my fuel system. The buick has all new SS ½ hardlines and alcohol compatible (magnafuel) pump and filter (large spin on paper element). This is not build up from hoses/tanks/etc. The eclipse has the factory fuel system with a the TT Supra Denso pump.

MTBE sounds like a likely candidate... This woudl also explain why some people never see this "goo" and some do.

Since the 1970s, most non ethanol gasoline sold has a component called MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether) added to the base gasoline to increase oxygen in the fuel, boosting octane. Though this additive is being phased out due to concerns over pollution of drinking water aquifers, it still is in use in many areas. Mixing ethanol with MTBE fuels creates a gel-like substance that gums up fuel and combustion systems.

One of the barriers to the production of ethanol from cellulosic biomass is the toughness of the cellulosic structure, and its resistance to chemical and enzymatic hydrolysis and insolubility in most solvents. Accordingly, pre-treatment such as steam explosion to break down the structure is a necessary first step. Now, researchers at the Japan Agency for Marine-Earth Science and Technology have discovered that cellulose undergoes a transformation from a crystalline form to an amorphous gel-like one very similar to a starch gel in water at high temperature (320° C) and pressure 25 (MPa). 2 Comments

Ethanol Fuel - As a motor fuel and fuel additive



Ethanol Fuels and Gas Tank Problems, iboats.com How To Library

Personal Fuel Study Ethanol/MTBE - Pensacola Fishing Forum

 

[Turbo Loyd]

I have a few thousand miles on a turbo Regal running E-85, with clean injectors when ever upgraded, so am not personally concerned.

One thought, the tip of the injectors would be the coolest part of the intake tract, due to the evaporation of the ethanol, so would this be attracting something in the vapor state that condenses on the cooler injector tip, or perhaps allowing something in the fuel itself to collect in the cool spot . Turbo Cliff indicates his read out of E-85 mixtures purchased at Chicago area stations, ranges from 70% (winter blend) to well over 85%. Would the higher alcohol content create a cooler injector, thus more gunk?

Keep in mind Ethanol is a neutral molecule and the pH of a solution of ethanol in water is slightly on the base site of 7.00. Methanol, is a weak acid, that can attack the oxide coating that normally protects aluminum from corrosion.

It does have an unquestioned ability as a solvent to clean any gunk in the fuel system, and carry it through. We really need to have an analysis of the gunk some collect on their injectors, to settle this once and for all.

 

[aminga]

I thought 10% ethanol replaced MTBE as a ozone reducing chemical.

 

[forcefed86]

I've heard that about MTBE as well. Doesn't mean all the vendors are going by the rules. Especially here in po-dunk middle America. It seems the build up of this gunk was twice as bad when I went to blender pumps VS pumps that were straight e85. Also it seemed to be worse with the delphi disc type injectors than my current 120lb pintle type.

 

[bsdlinux]

Over 25,000 with E-85 and no sign of this build up. There was also a though that the rubber lines were causing this. I'm still running stock lines and I live in Central Texas where we get E-85 year round. Its definitely an issue with E-85 or what is in it, or rubber lines. I though someone had done an analysis on the black goo??

 

[1outlaw]

Quote:
"One of the barriers to the production of ethanol from cellulosic biomass is the toughness of the cellulosic structure, and its resistance to chemical and enzymatic hydrolysis and insolubility in most solvents. Accordingly, pre-treatment such as steam explosion to break down the structure is a necessary first step. Now, researchers at the Japan Agency for Marine-Earth Science and Technology have discovered that cellulose undergoes a transformation from a crystalline form to an amorphous gel-like one very similar to a starch gel in water at high temperature (320° C) and pressure 25 (MPa). 2 Comments "



Just to note that the above statement is referring to the process of beaking down plant cell walls and does not imply that pressure and temp creates such a gel in ethanol itself.