Condensation in my oil, is this normal? Update 05/21/2015 Found a problem

[ttypewhite]

Don't worry about the tabs at this point. You have way too much cream action going on to be cured by that approach. You have a couple choices at this point. Either pull the motor and freshen it up, or change your head gaskets and flush that motor out. You definitely have a problem pressurizing the coolant system when under boost. Probably lifted the head to create this issue, or the head gasket is blown slightly. It will get worse if you don't address it soon. That same cream you see under your valve covers will also be coated to the bottom of your intake as well. IMO, don't bandaid it. Fix it.

 

[BARRACUDA1968]

I was afraid of that. Well I'm pretty disappointed at this point. Have no idea how I could have lifted a gasket but it is what it is.

I got everything cleaned up that I could so I'll put it back together and let it sit. I don't have the motivation to even work on it anymore. Just makes me sick to my stomach.

 

[ttypewhite]

Cheer up my friend, that's not as bad as you think. It's about $250 worth of gaskets and oil and a night in the garage for most. Don't let it overwhelm you. I would much rather to have this problem over a bottom end problem any day. If it's not your daily driver, that's even more of a bonus. Slowly gather your gaskets, silicone, oil and filter. When your mentally in the mood to deal with it, do so, or put a post on the board and ask for help from a local that you will pay to help work with you on it if you feel it's too much to handle yourself. Good luck.

 

[BARRACUDA1968]

I have another good friend who owns an automotive shop. I own a car dealership and I farm all my normal work to him. He's more than capable to handle the job and will treat me fair on labor. I've already talked to him about it. I'll just take the car to him and pick it up. I'm burnt out When I put the valve covers back on and that's always a fun job I wasn't paying attention and put them on the wrong sides. Can't get a breather in the passenger side if the hole isn't in the front of the motor. Hits the heater valve ma jiggy. That's when you know its time to put down the tools and walk away.

I did get everything back together and cleaned up the best I could. Just for shits I did another coolant pressure test and it held pressure but that don't mean anything if it takes boost to create the issue.

My other friend Rich who's been building motors for decades isn't convinced the head gaskets are out and neither is my other buddy Mike who will fix them if they are. I'm prepared for the worst so it don't mater to me anymore but they want me to drive it and stay out of the boost today. The theory is that I may have normal condensation and too much Alky spraying in the motor getting past the rings. I'm shooting enough alky for a lot more boost. My WB goes 10.0 instantly and stays there till I lift. Knob is on 6 and I'm running 18/19 boost.

I'll do a drive and see what happens. As long as the oil stays clean on the dipstick and at normal level I can't hurt anything anymore than I already have I guess.

 

[TurboBuRick]

It's either leaking from the intake or head gasket into the valley. Did you check intake bolts for the hell of it?

At any rate it would be nice to pinpoint the source of the leak. I've went as far as to pull the intake and make block off plates for the water jackets. With that said I found the head gaskets leaking coolant into the valley.

This is one of the reasons most do not run ant freeze. I know I don't. Water wont hurt bearings like the green stuff.

Also a good reason to run a pcv IMO. It's pulls allot of moisture out.

I would try not to drive it much.

Rick

 

[we4Mateo]

Are you using studs on the heads now? Maybe the dreaded "studs don't pull the head down far enough" issue has arose. Def check to see if you need a washer or two on the nuts to pull the head down tight. They'll torque right up against the stub but won't clamp the head down tight.

 

[BARRACUDA1968]

I using head bolts not studs. I changed the oil again yesterday and went for a drive. Not too much boost just wanted to see if the condensation would burn off with more heat in the motor. Since I pressure tested the cooling system and it passes I felt this was worth a try.

TT/Ameasap Bo Evans called me right before I left and talked me though a few things that he's experienced with this same issue so I knew it was possible to have this condition and live though it. I may still have a problem under boost so I will try that today. I had Sandy and the daughter in the car yesterday so I don't mess around with them in the car. I did a burn out one time with my Trans Am and scared the hell out of the daughter so she wouldn't ride in the car anymore.

No more milky stuff in the breathers or catch can. I drove 30 miles and stopped for a beverage. Checked oil, breathers and catch can. All good but catch can had pure water in it so I drained it. Drove another 20 miles and stopped for a beverage. Repeated process, all good but maybe 5 cc's of pure water in catch can each time. Drove 40 miles and stopped for a beverage. Same story.

Checked radiator at every stop. Coolant was warm as expected but radiator cap was cool? and no pressure when I opened it each time. Could be the cap because I have the pressure tester on the car pumped to 14 psi as I type this and it's holds pressure. The coolant was about 1 to 2 inches below the cap before I left. It's a little lower this morning but I just did the crank seal and the coolant could just be finding it's happy place. I did stick the nose of the car in the air yesterday and bled the system before I left.

Drove with a couple buddies yesterday who followed me and said nothing came out the tail pipe all day and they also felt the fluid out of the catch can. Pure water. No residue left over on your skin, just dries up like water.

Here is a video I took this morning. We drove about 50 miles to get home and parked the car in the garage. Drove it to my dealership this morning and this is how much water was in the catch can. Less than the previous times.

Now the question still remains on how did I get that much water in my motor? Weather and short trips? Could be. I drove it in the rain and I have a Tomko CAI and the filter is right behind the front bumper, sucked it in the motor? Could be. I was chasing oil leaks and added oil dye to find the leak. I used engine degreaser in a can and rinsed the motor off with low pressure water. I did cover my breathers with plastic bags. Could I have gotten water in the motor doing that? Could be.

The jury's still out so I will drive it more today and see if I dry up completely. I getting closer.

 

[earlbrown]

Just to make sure.... While riding around, you're using pure water as coolant with no antifreeze, right?

 

[BARRACUDA1968]

No still have antifreeze in system. If I have anything other than just condensation going on here the damage is already done. I'll just shit can the whole deal and start over. I'm not getting a bad attitude but I am getting fed up. I did everything correct breaking this motor in and god knows how many thousands of dollars buying the best parts known to man. Hired the best engine builder around here and I spent dozens of hours putting this thing back together only to get kicked in the nuts. I love the car but its been nothing but a headache for me literally since day 1. I'll keep after it Earl and I get the straight water deal but there's no combustion gases in coolant. No milk shake oil on dipstick. I'm not leaning toward head gaskets or intake at this point. I could be wrong though just don't know any other way to test for it than what I have done so far. You saw results from this morning. If the moisture is still there when I get back home today and hasent burned off the motors coming out.

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[we4Mateo]

I think the cap is bad if it isn't holding pressure and if that's the case, it'll leak coolant under boost.

 

[BARRACUDA1968]

Tested cap this morning. It tested bad. Bought new cap and I have pressure now.

At my second stop for the day. 25 miles of driving. No boost. Oil is clean breathers clean. Valve covers clean. 3 cc's of water out of catch can. Least so far.



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[earlbrown]

That's ballsy leaving the antifreeze in there. You know that stuff physically eats bearings, right?

 

[johnl455]

Put a little sharpie mark at the coolant level in the overflow and check it each morning. If it's the same and the radiator is full and cap is good, then its condensation. It may take quite some time to clear that much out with several oil /filter changes and the 180 stat. I've seen the McDonalds shake goop in several engines that were short tripped in the winter. If you burn a gallon of gas, you get just over a gallon of water from combustion, during warm up a lot of that condenses on the cold walls and the 160 stat allows it to accumlate over time into a mess. The GM stopleak or Northstar tabs (made by Barsleak) is just ground ginger root. If used in a 50/50 glycol solution in a quantity as recommended I think thats 3 tabs, , I have never had adverse problems from it. IN a street driven car I would NEVER run a stat temp other than what the GM engineers determined was correct for that engine during the engine mapping process.

 

[BARRACUDA1968]

That's ballsy leaving the antifreeze in there. You know that stuff physically eats bearings, right?

Yep I do. What do I do from here? Tear the motor down? Take the intake off? Pull the heads? If I knew what was wrong I would. Like I have said before what other test can I run and get and answer? I have block tested the motor, pressure tested the motor, no milk shake yet, plugs look good, oil pressure excellent, no smoke or smell from exhaust. I agree there is something wrong no doubt. One day motor was normal next day white gooey stuff.

I'll pull the motor, I won't like it but I'll do it. I'm not trying to make it better by hoping someone on the board tells me I'll be ok if I put my rear defrost on for the first 5 minutes I start the car.

I've read that people have had my problem from condensation, leaky head bolts, too much alky, blow by etc.

I just got home after 40 miles of driving. Pulled car in garage. Catch can was almost dry, still moisture in breathers, radiator full with pressure. Dipstick clear and normal level.

If I thought I needed to run water instead of antifreeze I'd dust off the cherry picker.

If I'm wrong then I'll pay the price but I just can't justify any other option with the data I have at this point.

As always I appreciate your knowledge Earl. I pay attention and respect your input.

 

[BARRACUDA1968]

Put a little sharpie mark at the coolant level in the overflow and check it each morning. If it's the same and the radiator is full and cap is good, then its condensation. It may take quite some time to clear that much out with several oil /filter changes and the 180 stat. I've seen the McDonalds shake goop in several engines that were short tripped in the winter. If you burn a gallon of gas, you get just over a gallon of water from combustion, during warm up a lot of that condenses on the cold walls and the 160 stat allows it to accumlate over time into a mess. The GM stopleak or Northstar tabs (made by Barsleak) is just ground ginger root. If used in a 50/50 glycol solution in a quantity as recommended I think thats 3 tabs, , I have never had adverse problems from it. IN a street driven car I would NEVER run a stat temp other than what the GM engineers determined was correct for that engine during the engine mapping process.

I agree, I'll give it some time and change the oil. I put some tabs in the coolant today. We'll see what happens

 

[earlbrown]

I like those tabs. After seeing them patch a BIG leak in a Mitsubishi Eclipse that should not have been patchable, I'm sold on them. I drop one or two in every time I change coolant on all my cars.


While you're doing all this troubleshooting, I'd drain the antifreeze and fill it up with tap water. If the moisture you're finding is not atmospheric and is coolant, there's no reason to subject your bearings to it before you find the cause and fix it.

 

[BARRACUDA1968]

You have a valid point and that's what I should have done to start with.

I got home last night after a 35 mile drive and minimal moisture in the catch can. The least so far. Everything else checked out good. Pulled dipstick this morning before starting the motor and nice clean oil same level as yesterday.

I may have had a very small leak somewhere and the tabs are doing their job? Talked with Husek yesterday afternoon and he thought maybe head bolts were leaking and that's why I had all the moisture in the head area. Hard to say but I think Matt used thread sealer on the bolts. I also wondered if I'm spraying to much alky and that was attracting water? My WB goes 10.0 as soon as boost comes on and stays there until I lift. Now the PL shows 10.2 to 10.5 at the end of 3rd so don't know what to believe so I stay on the safe side and leave alky on 6.

I do have a strong alky smell after a run but that may be normal?

I put some boost in to it and stopped to check things over and I had the white gooey stuff in the can and a little at the breathers. May be residual goo getting shoved around under boost. I'm sure I didn't get it all when I cleaned everything up.

I'm going to do a coolant pressure test today and see if it's all good which it will be.

I'll do one more oil change and see what happens. If it dry's up which it seems to be I won't worry about it anymore. I'm sure a little moisture at the breathers and the catch can is a normal event in the colder weather. I do 98% highway cruising so no stop and go traffic for me to get more heat in the motor.

If not then I'll pull the intake and if nothing shows there I'll take the heads off. Not sure what else I can do at this point but I got 2 guys here local that say no to head gaskets and I wish I knew what they forgot. Bo Evans say's same thing.

I saved some oil out of the last oil change. How would you guy's test that for coolant or H2O? If I heat it up what results should I see if it's coolant vs H2O? Or is there another method I can do in my shop?

 

[TurboBuRick]

If you already did it, disregard but did you check the intake bolts?

Rick

 

[BARRACUDA1968]

Yes I checked manifold bolts. Tight

System is holding pressure too.

I'm going to do another oil change and run the dog shit out of it and see if I'm getting this problem under boost like mentioned earlier in the thread. Normal driving is not showing me anything other than condensation.

I'm almost ready to pull it but my buddy's talking me out of it until I know for sure what's wrong. I happen to be all out of tests to run and I don't want to eat the bearings up if I'm sucking coolant in somehow. No signs of it so far but that was a lot of white goo in the valve covers and separated to pure water. I was told antifreeze won't do that but I'm no chemist.

 

[earlbrown]

Antifreeze can milkshake just like plain water.

What's really amazing is just how little actual water it take to coat the living crap out of a valve cover. I pulled one once and leaned it against my gas grill to let it all settle. Turns out it was about a thimble full.


If it was leaking up the head bolts, the seal tabs will probably take care of that. Jut adding sealant to the thread doesn't seem to work everytime. There's some prep work that needs to be done on both sets of thread to have a shot at good results.