Cylinder Head Madness......UPDATE 6/25/2016

[fastblackracing]

TA Head pictures..... the spark plug ground strap is pointing towards the intake valve.
Note the nice air splitters around the vale guides.
The first 4 pics Intake.....the next 3 exhaust.

 

[Mike T]

I've found that measuring throat diameter can be a bit tricky or subjective depending on the shape of the valve pocket and the depth of the 60 degree cut. We recently had a cylinder head comparison at our local club meet that included Champion aluminums and various professional/self ported irons.

When compared side by side some had a very narrow 60 degree (rather high in the throat area) and others were very wide extending kind of deep into the pocket.

The clearest example of this would be a set of iron heads done by one of the top Buick guys......the valve guides had been moved to accommodate 1.830 intake valves. We removed a valve and found the 45 degree cut to be about .045 wide but the 60 was overly wide extending deep into the pocket.

In this case I felt that the throat should be measured at the base of the 60 which ended up working out to 1.518 or 83%.

Another head with 1.77 valves had a .040 seat contact patch with only a .020 wide 60 degree (very high in the throat area) so the throat of this head was 1.646 or 93%.

So the big question would be which one is better? You end up with almost the same contact patch, smaller valve (less shrouding), larger throat (potentially more flow) but the transition between the angles aren't as gradual and could create turbulence.

 

[Jerryl]

Great info Fastblack.
Thanks for sharing this.

I am always torn between valve size, flow, and lift.
Something so simple yet so complex.

 

[bpman1234]

Nice tear drops.

 

[forcefed3.8's]

Look at the whole flow curve, not just peak numbers. The 2.0 gn1r head is probably the best all atound head. It has the meatest flow curve, and a perfect 80% intake/ exhaust ratio. The 1.9 and 1.98 heads are mine. The 1.98 gave nothing up to the 1.9, and has a slightly better intake/ exhaust ratio than the 1.9s. I ran mid 8s and made 1100+hp with the 1.9 heads.

 

[fastblackracing]

I've found that measuring throat diameter can be a bit tricky or subjective depending on the shape of the valve pocket and the depth of the 60 degree cut. We recently had a cylinder head comparison at our local club meet that included Champion aluminums and various professional/self ported irons.

When compared side by side some had a very narrow 60 degree (rather high in the throat area) and others were very wide extending kind of deep into the pocket.

The clearest example of this would be a set of heads iron done by one of the top Buick guys......the valve guides had been moved to accommodate 1.830 intake valves. We removed a valve and found the 45 degree cut to be about .045 wide but the 60 was overly wide extending deep into the pocket.

In this case I felt that the throat should be measured at the base of the 60 which ended up working out to 1.518 or 83%.

Another head with 1.77 valves had a .040 seat contact patch with only a .020 wide 60 degree (very high in the throat area) so the throat of this head was 1.646 or 93%.

So the big question would be which one is better? You end up with almost the same contact patch, smaller valve (less shrouding), larger throat (potentially more flow) but the transition between the angles aren't as gradual and could create turbulence.

I agree Mike, subjective and tricky.

Thanks for your input, with everything you have doing with
heads lately I was Hoping you would provide some input.

 

[Mike T]

I agree Mike, subjective and tricky.

Thanks for your input, with everything you have doing with
heads lately I was Hoping you would provide some input.

Like most guys on here I don't have access to the proper test equipment....so most of the things that I'm trying are "seat of the pants" ideas inspired by studying threads like yours.

The latest has been a really low tech approach (attempt) to map the actual flow path of my recently ported heads. I'm really intrigued as to why the exhaust side seems to flow so well. By using a shopvac attached to the exhaust port and a pinstripe brush positioned in various areas around the valve and down into the pocket I've found areas of higher flow, turbulence and even a dead spot that was created by removing too much material in a particular area (won't do that next time).

Once again simple and crude but It's been repeatable time after time.

 

[forzfed]

Like most guys on here I don't have access to the proper test equipment....so most of the things that I'm trying are "seat of the pants" ideas inspired by studying threads like yours.

The latest has been a really low tech approach (attempt) to map the actual flow path of my recently ported heads. I'm really intrigued as to why the exhaust side seems to flow so well. By using a shopvac attached to the exhaust port and a pinstripe brush positioned in various areas around the valve and down into the pocket I've found areas of higher flow, turbulence and even a dead spot that was created by removing too much material in a particular area (won't do that next time).

Once again simple and crude but It's been repeatable time after time.

A buddy of mine use to have superflow and he said the same thing as you, thinking getting rid of a lot of meat in certain areas will flow more but, no. A wet flow would be good as well to check for fuel pooling in the ports.

 

[chriss4655]

A buddy of mine use to have superflow and he said the same thing as you, thinking getting rid of a lot of meat in certain areas will flow more but, no. A wet flow would be good as well to check for fuel pooling in the ports.

DIY porting

 

[Mike T]

I would say that we are very lucky that TA and Champion are even making these heads for us given the limited market.
If either company were to develop a new head design I think it would be interesting to see a head with some of the modern LS characteristics incorporated into it. You would obviously need a different intake to accommodate the port design.

Since you pictured a LS head for reference I thought these flow numbers on stock untouched 243 heads would be of interest. The intake numbers are on par with the Buick heads.



Casting Number 243
Head: 2001 LS6 5.7 Liter Passenger Car
Material: Aluminum
Part Number:
12564243
Combustion Chamber Volume: 64.45cc
Compression Ratio: 10.5:1
Intake Port Volume: 210cc
Exhaust Port Volume: 75cc
Intake Valve Diameter: 2.00 inches
Exhaust Valve Diameter: 1.55 inches

Stock Head Flow Numbers
Chamber 64.45 cc-------0.100---0.200--0.300--0.400---0.500---0.550---0.600
Intake 210 cc------------62------126----184----224-----251----256----257
Exhaust 75 cc------------57------108----143----163-----176----180----183

 

[fastblackracing]

I would say that we are very lucky that TA and Champion are even making these heads for us given the limited market.
If either company were to develop a new head design I think it would be interesting to see a head with some of the modern LS characteristics incorporated into it. You would obviously need a different intake to accommodate the port design.

Since you pictured a LS head for reference I thought these flow numbers on stock untouched 243 heads would be of interest. The intake numbers are on par with the Buick heads.



Casting Number 243
Head: 2001 LS6 5.7 Liter Passenger Car
Material: Aluminum
Part Number:
12564243
Combustion Chamber Volume: 64.45cc
Compression Ratio: 10.5:1
Intake Port Volume: 210cc
Exhaust Port Volume: 75cc
Intake Valve Diameter: 2.00 inches
Exhaust Valve Diameter: 1.55 inches

Stock Head Flow Numbers
Chamber 64.45 cc-------0.100---0.200--0.300--0.400---0.500---0.550---0.600
Intake 210 cc------------62------126----184----224-----251----256----257
Exhaust 75 cc------------57------108----143----163-----176----180----183

LS style ports with some nice port work and a matching sheet metal style intake with Improved plenum design and
a wilson style 90* L bow would open up some possibilities. The big TA/champ intake may even be able to accommodate
this style port. I do not have mine yet to measure.
300 cfm ports with good airspeed and strong low and mid-lift flow numbers
using smallish <2.02" intake valves I feel would be do-able.

Usable power power range could easily be extended to 7000 rpm
or the combo could be set up to max out a compressor limited engine at
a much lower pressure ratio which would help turbine pressure to be lower,
compressor discharge temps lower and a cleaner cylinder fill.
win,win,win.

I measured the TA heads valve angle at 10-11 degrees and I think this would work very
well with an even taller raised runner style port that the LS heads have,
The taller the port the better the flatter valve angles will work due to the air being able
to get around the short side radius better.

I feel this is part of the reason the exhaust port flows as well as they do....once the air
gets past the valve it has a nice upward slope that gives the air an easy path to follow
and the shortside and long side radius gently turn to get the air out....you can feel it
just running your fingers through the port.

Anybody know what the valve angles are in the stock and the champ heads?

 

[nash421]

Great thread, thanks for sharing this!

 

[fastblackracing]

Update of this thread with 2 more sets of flow numbers.....The latest set of TA SE heads I have are a very well prepped set of heads that have been refined a bit and have very good all around numbers.

The other set is a set of real stage 2 heads that I had done for comparisons sake and to help me understand the numbers and what they mean.

In the first set of pictures is a cylinder head/ Intake manifold holding fixture I made out of 3/4"round bar and covered with heater hose....it works great and I recommend anyone doing any porting work to make themselves one.
I can provide the dimensions to anyone that wants them.

On to the heads. The TA set has 1.99 x 1.60valves and are well done. These put up what I feel are very good over all numbers.

The stage 2 heads look to have very nice port work and flowed as expected....with their very raised intake port and a great approach to the backside of the valve it is easy to understand how the porting principles that raising the port brings additional air flow....after looking at these ports I do not feel that the intake port volume is tremendously bigger than the TA's, I will measure the volume at some point and see for sure.

The stage 2 has a much steeper angle of approach to the backside of the valve that results in better airflow, and even then they only out flow the TA heads at .350" and up. There was no advantage at low lifts which surprised me.

The pictures of the stage 2 head in which I am holding a scribe is to show how I have come to use the scribe as a tool to feel the roof line porting of the heads...by rotating the tool and using the back edge radius and pushing the tool along the port with light pressure on it you can feel how it "flows" along the roof line through the long side turn or back wall.......In all cases the heads that flowed better numbers this technique using the scribe it would flow smoothly
all the way through the turn. In the heads that did not flow as well as others the tool would crash or bind up in the long side turn which likely means the air will also. likely indicating to sharp of a corner lacking in radius.

The TA head port opening is 1.15" x 2.25"
..and the stage 2 opening is 1.28" x 2.13"
Ok enough reading, time for some pics.

 

[TURBOELKY]

That last pic....

Now that's a thing of beauty there!

 

[fastblackracing]

More pics....some shots of the chamber shape and un-shrouding, the intake port floor both sides of floor to wall
radius blends. This is the Good TA head with the 1.99 intake valve for ID purposes.

 

[Mike T]

In the heads that did not flow as well as others the tool would crash or bind up in the long side turn which likely means the air will also. likely indicating to sharp of a corner lacking in radius.

I really like your no nonsense approach to all of this testing. What you have found in your testing concerning the long turn is something that was brought up to me by the man who has built some of the fastest engines out there. He basically said the air tends to crash in this area and given the limited thickness of material you can only do so much to correct it.

Thanks again for all of the info.....this thread really should be a sticky.

 

[20psiofevil]

Those stage heads #'s are sick! Question, are the stage heads from buick originate from the nascar busch series racing program? Like the ford svo v6 heads? Because they flow very similar.

 

[hemi8]

So the old S2 heads out flowed everything?
Mke

 

[achalmersman]

Just for educational purposes does that chamber have a tiny crack from the plug hole toward the intake valve? How large does this crack need to be before it becomes a concern?

Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk

Specifically this picture

 

[fastblackracing]

Good eye achalmers, the crack has been there a while and not causing any issues from what I was told....my new cell phone takes amazing pics...

And yes hemi 8 the stage 2 heads out flowed everything else that I have tested to date.
I feel that in order to really benefit from the stage 2 heads that I have you would need to build
an engine and car that would run 8.30's and faster and be looking to turn the rpms in the
7500 minimum to 8500 rpm range.

As port cfm increases usually the port volume increases with it so you need to picture the intake port as
an accumulation or storage chamber waiting for the valve to open so that cylinder fill can begin.....
and if the port volume is too large the airspeed through the head will be lower and lazier and even tho we have a turbo that helps us out the oversized ports will not do as good of a job of filling the cylinder as a port that is sized correctly and has higher but not to high of an air speed that will help to ram the air in through the valve open cycle and especially at the tail end of the intake valve cylinder fill cycle.....as the valve is closing you really need the air speed to be high so that more air can sneak in as the valve is approaching the seat.

Which brings up the ? what is the right size port volume and cfm numbers?
Well this is the challenge that has been at the front for us gear heads forever.....it is a
learning curve by trial and error learning from others who are open in sharing there information
with us and then we continue to pick away and constantly refine our combos with different
cams and rocker ratios...turbos, innercoolers etc...every time the engine is refreshed
along with different heads/ porting techniques and making the changes based on what
we learned from the last combo.

So too little of a port and low cfm numbers the cylinder struggles to fill.
and too large of a port and too high of cfm numbers and the engine can be lazy
due to the lower airspeed that too big brings to the party.

I will say that the one car I did with stage 2 heads did drive surprisingly well on the street but it was not substantially faster than it would have been with a stock port location set of heads....it ran the number on maybe 4 - 5 pounds less boost.

We really have it easy with our turbos to help us out by covering up a multitude of sins so to speak....
we can can have tiny poor flowing ports, cams that are no where near optimal and still run some good
numbers.....but that does not mean that there is not a lot of horsepower being left on the table...
its there if you are willing to put the time and effort and $$ in to go after it.....it is all about air flow thru the
engine and the quality of that air meaning the air temp has to be considered and how hard does the turbo
have to work to get the air mass thru the engine.......better flowing proper sized heads and the best cam
along with the coolest air charge temps and the lowest turbine back pressure will make the most power....
this is the game we play in a nutshell if you break it down.....as i get somewhat older I have learned the importance of passing down what I have learned to the younger technicians at work and this cylinder head
thread is a result of that....I simply want all of my T/R brothers and sisters that are interested to learn
something and be inspired to think out side of the box a bit. If only a handful of people benefit from this thread I am happy with that.

MikeT and turboelky are a couple of guys that get it and put the time and effort in to find more power through better heads and take what they have learned and build on it. There are others as well, but I have seen
these guys being pretty active on this.....not being content with what they have but willing to put the hard work in to get the results.


Now keep in mind that all of these tests have taken place at the same facility by the the same operator.
And I also had a set of heads off our small ford N2O engine retested as they were tested 5 years ago at the
same place when we bought them and the numbers were within 10 cfm of the test done 5 years ago.
[ 352 now cfm verses 361 old cfm ]

Seeing as this place is a major player in the aftermarket head game and the test results I have gotten
I am very confident that these are real world honest numbers maybe only 5-10 cfm light at the most.

Comments and input is welcomed and lets see what all we learn from this.

FBR...Mannie.





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