Disadvantages of S2 heads?
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Stage II heads have many, many disadvantages and none of them are performance related.....they will be extremely expensive to use vs GN1's because NOTHING will fit on them...everything must be fabbed.....ATR headers are available but a major PITA to install (for example.......)
they will outflow GN1's but at a cost ($$$$)
send an e-mail to Nick and ask him what it costs to use Stage II's.....he just built a car up here locally
they will outflow GN1's but at a cost ($$$$)
send an e-mail to Nick and ask him what it costs to use Stage II's.....he just built a car up here locally
Woody, I kinda disagree with you...while acknowledging the PITA factor.
It all depends on where you start, and what you want to do. If you're talking about just bolting on a set of heads, then okay. But, if you score a set of S2's for say $300, then the $1K for headers, $200 for cam, $400 to modify an intake compares pretty well to the $2000 you'd pay for a set of GN1's. That's assuming you're not going to buy a new cam and headers to go with the GN1's. And I know people get upset when you talk about cracked GN1's, and maybe they've got it fixed, but... S2's just don't crack. Now, the TA heads may change the whole equation, but IMHO S2's are a still a very viable option.
And they look bitchin'!
It all depends on where you start, and what you want to do. If you're talking about just bolting on a set of heads, then okay. But, if you score a set of S2's for say $300, then the $1K for headers, $200 for cam, $400 to modify an intake compares pretty well to the $2000 you'd pay for a set of GN1's. That's assuming you're not going to buy a new cam and headers to go with the GN1's. And I know people get upset when you talk about cracked GN1's, and maybe they've got it fixed, but... S2's just don't crack. Now, the TA heads may change the whole equation, but IMHO S2's are a still a very viable option.
And they look bitchin'!
Mac, I agree to disagree
I guess it would all depend on what you pay for the SII heads and your tolerence for pain...man, they sure are purty, but having been around a build up with them, I think I'd give up the extra power
there is no question they flow better........you can put a coke bottle thru the ports!
I guess it would all depend on what you pay for the SII heads and your tolerence for pain...man, they sure are purty, but having been around a build up with them, I think I'd give up the extra power
there is no question they flow better........you can put a coke bottle thru the ports!
mac said stage 2 dont crack,,,, dotson high 7 sec, car has cracked a few,, jim rock has cracked serval, dave ficus cracked one at reynolds, kent rubeck high 7 sec car, there are a lot of fast stage two headed cars, a lot of the owners dont post on boards im sure there are other fast stage two headed cars that have had head trouble, champion heads i have owned three sets and cracked two including the R-heads and im wating now for the new raised port heads with matching intake, setting in my garage i have a nice set of stage 2 heads also a set of killer ported iron stage heads, i could go stage two heads, but , im hard headed, i went 152 mph with champion heads should pick up a little with the new champion raised port heads, at my age you find out there is nothing made that wont break sooner or later, this is just my opinion,
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Mac and Odell,
I know that some stage 2 heads crack when being pushed or mis-tunned but the non stage heads have blown on 9 second cars.
Odell,
Do you have any cranks laying around???
I know that some stage 2 heads crack when being pushed or mis-tunned but the non stage heads have blown on 9 second cars.
Odell,
Do you have any cranks laying around???
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My take on it...
In addition to what's said about the cracks... "Most" S2 heads are already ported for use on an N/A application..IE: ASA or BUSCH. Therefore, the exh ports are VERY close to water, and the sealing face for the headers are very thin... A frequent source for a crack.
In deciding what to do on my engine, I was talking w/ some guys that have run them. One item mentioned frequently was " not much improvement over the Champs until I added a 5" downpipe". That alone decided things for me. It also came to my feeble mind that all those guys were in the 88 turbo club..[IE: they were using ALOT more air than we "streeter/strip" guys can use.
As also mentioned, it ain't cheap.. Especially, if you are changing from stock style to S2...
Back under my HEMI!! [Talk about "NOT CHEAP"!!!]
In addition to what's said about the cracks... "Most" S2 heads are already ported for use on an N/A application..IE: ASA or BUSCH. Therefore, the exh ports are VERY close to water, and the sealing face for the headers are very thin... A frequent source for a crack.
In deciding what to do on my engine, I was talking w/ some guys that have run them. One item mentioned frequently was " not much improvement over the Champs until I added a 5" downpipe". That alone decided things for me. It also came to my feeble mind that all those guys were in the 88 turbo club..[IE: they were using ALOT more air than we "streeter/strip" guys can use.
As also mentioned, it ain't cheap.. Especially, if you are changing from stock style to S2...
Back under my HEMI!!
[Talk about "NOT CHEAP"!!!]- Joined
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I saw the dyno..... now I'm a believer.
I could not use stage 1 heads if I tried...
I could not use stage 1 heads if I tried...
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Mac, not picking on you but lots of "little" items left out of your summary.
If you can find a set of virgin heads for $300 that is a great price. Then add valves, springs, retainers, etc. including a valve job. Don't forget the roller rockers, valve covers and special lifters.
As far as the install, different fuel lines, all brackets need to be fabricated including the plenum and mating items.
If this customer was not also a friend, the labor bill would be astronomical for the number of untold hours that have gone into making all fit and work.
Must mention the MANY hours getting the ATR headers modified and installed and STILL they leak!
So a killer set of new TA heads would be around $3000 and capable of over 1100 HP, this would be much less than half of the cost of stage II heads on this project. [And he would have ended up with hydraulic lifters instead of the high maintance solids!]
Originally posted by Nick Micale
Mac, not picking on you but lots of "little" items left out of your summary.
<snip>
So a killer set of new TA heads would be around $3000 and capable of over 1100 HP, this would be much less than half of the cost of stage II heads on this project. [And he would have ended up with hydraulic lifters instead of the high maintance solids!]
$6,000.00 for a set of SII heads????
Nahh, I don't agree.With proper shopping techniques, a very nice set of SII alum. heads can be had for as little as $250. New stainless & Inconel valves for another $200, springs and associated hardware, maybe another $200.
And you don't "have" to run solid lifters, or even special one's. Mine will be running hydraulics. Unless I decide to go with a very radical cam (270+).
So the only other additional costs that the SII heads might require would be the headers (can be found without a lot of difficulty) and the intake (you can spend big if you want to go with a BGC intake). A 4bbl intake can be set up for $500 or so if you find the right fabricator.
The think is, if you are in a hurry, and have no time to shop, then the costs will be astronomical!!
I'm going the shopping route and will probably take a couple years to get it built.
BTW, cheap (good) SII heads can be found (that $250 price is not a guess), I've done it, just haven't bought them yet.
While a set of T/A heads would be ideal for my situation. And they're perfect for it, my budget will require the "shopping mode" of SII buildup. Much like Kendall's, it will be strictly "second hand" racing for me.
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Originally posted by TurboDave
$6,000.00 for a set of SII heads????
With proper shopping techniques, a very nice set of SII alum. heads can be had for as little as $250. New stainless & Inconel valves for another $200, springs and associated hardware, maybe another $200.
....................
If you noticed I said "stage II heads on this project". When you start collecting AND fabricating parts that have not even been mentioned so far, you will see how much you will spend, about twice what you figured!
The headers, if used, will probably need to be repaired or modified as most are for 4 bolt turbos. Fuel system parts are not cheap and linkage must be fabricated. Suprising how the small things add quickly to the project cost.
Hopefully you found unported heads like Chuck said so it would have a "little" street drivability!
Good luck on your plan Dave but I still have the question of "why" stage II heads unless you are planning for the 7's or 8's? Ken D. has dyno'ed TA heads to over 1100 HP [and still more left] which is probably enough for most street/strip applications.
Originally posted by Nick Micale
<snip>
Good luck on your plan Dave but I still have the question of "why" stage II heads unless you are planning for the 7's or 8's? Ken D. has dyno'ed TA heads to over 1100 HP [and still more left] which is probably enough for most street/strip applications.
Why SII heads? Why not? Like I said, they are extremely plentiful and literally dirt cheap, even in perfect condition (unless you try buying "main stream"), I wont mention any names, but a certain vendor I talked to wanted $2000.00 for a set of SII heads he couldn't even answer any basic questions about!!!
OMG!!!I have also found them in great condition with good sized chambers (for turbo apps), for a little as $250.00 a set!!! again, OMG!!
I just cannot justify the "thousands" it would cost to put together a set of T/A heads (yes they are everything that they are cracked up to be), my budget can't handle that kind of hit all at one time. Then add the parts, and no I don't want to try and make my target 750HP on a stock style manifold, so there's more money for something special there, even with those heads.
As I see it right now the only "major" hits my pocket book will take in the next year or two will be the crankshaft (obviously), and maybe a total investment of around $800 for a complete intake with everything but injectors. Pistons and rods, maybe $500 a pop for those two.
The block I've chosen (I got two of these BMS SII aluminum blocks pretty reasonable I think, which is why that's an expense I no longer have to worry about) will only require minor machine work, so that's a non player.
No, I'm not trying to run 7's, I can't with this BMS aluminum block, unless I can find a Chevy Vega to drop it into.
But if I decide to put it in my GN, then I want something that will effortlessly make that 750HP, with (I hope) no more than 20# of boost.
It may not be perfectly streetable, but I know enough people who have what they consider to be perfectly mannered SII projects running around on the street. I think the secret to getting a SII block, heads and intake to all work together are a good match of porting (or lack thereof) and turbo(s)
As stated earlier, most (NOT ALL) of the parts to put a SII project together are pretty plentiful, and many are very reasonably priced. IF, and I repeat IF, you're not in a big hurry and have to buy the first thing that pops up.
Would GN1R's be good? YES!! Would T/A heads be good? YES!!
$$$$$$$$$$$
Originally posted by azgn
sooooo, what you are saying is, you think the SII heads will be cheaper than something else for a measley 750 HP?
I wish you luck in your quest and please keep us informed
I think they are, but please show me where I'm terribly off base.
I know there's probably a lot of SII veterans on here listening to a SII rooky trying to justify why I've decided (so far) to run SII heads on my setup.
Sooooo,
I already have a pretty good handle on what the top of the motor's going to cost with SII heads, so can ya'll give me some $$$ numbers on what setting it up with some other type of head (NOT IRON) would cost?
Also keep in mind this is an on-center, dry sump block.
Cost of:
GN1-R heads? (not exactly my first choice but they are getting better at not cracking I guess).
valves (preferably titanium intakes, stainles or inconel exhausts, I'm going to turn this motor pretty tight).
And associated valve parts (springs, retainers, locks)
machining required?
T&D rockers?
valve covers?
Now the real issue, Which intake/throttle body to use? Since this is an on-center block, a special manifold will be required NO MATTER which heads I use, so it really shouldn't even be in the cost equation when comparing which heads to go with.
Same questions as above but with:
T/A heads?
Thanks guys, I can still hear everybody snickering in the background, but that's OK. I can take it. Hey if I didn't have a sense of adventure, I would have just settled for finding a nice SII off center iron block.
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