Distributor/knock sensor question

[Mastiff]

I have a 1983 engine that's going into my '78 Oldsmobile Starfire (long story - bought to be a cheap extra car, turned into a project), and I really hope to get it done this summer. It's been a few years in the making, but the NOS engine is now fully rebuilt, partly by me but mostly by the racing mechanic son of my neighbour. His help did cost a bit, but he really knows what he's doing, something I don't... Torquing with a 1000 dollar, digital wrench is always impressive! I gave it new gaskets and seals, new bearings, the oil flow mods for the front cover and removed some internal rust from when it was stored in a shop in Michigan until 2010 and I got it sendt to Norway. I also have an older carburetor from when there was nothing electronic in it, to make stuff simpler. So all that is now on the engine, and the swap is getting a bit closer. This actually look like an engine now, not a set of random parts! (Oh, and I did not mount a mirror on it, it's from my son's Yamaha RZ 125 standing next to it...)

But before I get that far I need to sort out the distributor on this thing. For now I only have the original 1978 distributor that was on the Oldsmobile Starfire when I got it. Can I use this, or do I need to get something else? Then there's the knock sensor. I really don't feel like having spent six years on this car (well, more like having spent one year and stored it in the garage for five...) only to blow up the engine on the first "power run". I have an MSD 6 BTM that I was told I needed when I first started, and the engine has the knock sensor at the rear of the block. But do I use the MSD in stead o f the knock sensor setup, or do I need a new distributor and controller for the knock sensor, in addition to that? And if I only use the MSD, where should I take the vacuum from?

 

[No disintegrations]

That engine was before my time but I think to use the knock sensor you'd need an ecm of some kind. For simplicity if you were careful with the timing it could be done without the knock sensor.
So the donor car is a 78 olds Starfire with Buick 3.8?

 

[bison]

If you aren't going to be way over on octane and run retarded timing all the time you will need a knock box. Buick used them 1978-1980. The distributor was specific to the engine code


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[b4black]

I see a few options. Obviously you don't want to run the full 1983 ECM set up. The MSD 6 BTM is not knock protection - is just a way to pull timing based on a boost reference.

1. You could go with a 1978/79 distributor and Turbo Control Center. This is the first generation knock system. Personally I don't know how good or bad it is.
2. No active knock protection, but a knock sensor gauge from Casper's Electronics. The gauge is stand alone and doesn't require an ECM. (Will not retard timing)
   1. http://www.casperselectronics.com/store2/product_info.php?cPath=61_62_5_6_10&products_id=597 and it wil require an Electronic Spark Control (ESC) module.
3. Or something aftermarket like this: http://www.jandssafeguard.com/

 

[Mastiff]

Thanks for all the answers! I will not go bananas on anything, I just want a fast and cool road car. It's not going to be run on any kind of tracks. But I thought the MSD 6 BTM prevented knocking by pulling timing when the boost increased, so I could avoid blowing the engine. What would be considered safe for my use? I have to admit that spending several hundred dollars more isn't very appealing to me, but if it's the right way/only way, then I will do it. I think the gauge choice seems nice. But what new parts do I need all in all to get that working? Can I use the MSD as the spark control, or is that something completely different (yeah, I know I'm probably dumb, please don't rub it in... ) And do I have to replace that distributor as well, when I'm doing this? And should I in that case go for something like a Proform or other atermarket, or is it better/cheaper/easier/whatever to get one that's been on a similar engine.

 

[No disintegrations]

Thanks for all the answers! I will not go bananas on anything, I just want a fast and cool road car. It's not going to be run on any kind of tracks. But I thought the MSD 6 BTM prevented knocking by pulling timing when the boost increased, so I could avoid blowing the engine. What would be considered safe for my use? I have to admit that spending several hundred dollars more isn't very appealing to me, but if it's the right way/only way, then I will do it. I think the gauge choice seems nice. But what new parts do I need all in all to get that working? Can I use the MSD as the spark control, or is that something completely different (yeah, I know I'm probably dumb, please don't rub it in... ) And do I have to replace that distributor as well, when I'm doing this? And should I in that case go for something like a Proform or other atermarket, or is it better/cheaper/easier/whatever to get one that's been on a similar engine.

Bison talked of the factory "knock box" That's how you can use a knock sensor for safety. The aftermarket stuff can retard timing when in boost but i don't think many can sense knock. Knock destroys engines, must be avoided.

 

[charlief1]

Glad to see you still around Tor. The J&S unit does everything the stock 78-80 knock control does, but it's more effective. It is a bit pricey but it will keep you from damaging something. It doesn't just take timing out of the entire system, but does it one cylinder at a time, and by the time the cylinder fires again. It's just like the newer systems on cars now, but works with any carb based system to keep everything safe.

 

[Mastiff]

No disintegraitons, I will have to get what works best, then.

Hi, Charlie! Yeah, long time no see. I needed a deadline to get on with this. We're selling the house in a few months, and I need to have the car moveable before we have to get out (probably August), so now the engine is rebuilt, and I plan to use July to put stuff together. And if you say that the J&S system is the best for my application, I'll just have to get that. So does that mean that the MSD I've had on the shelf since...well, since last time I was working on this (around 2010, I guess) is unnecessary? If it is I may try to eBay it, along with the original carb from this car (1983, with the electronics that I didn't want) and a few other bits.

Edit: Can I use the original sensor, or do I have to buy one ofthe knock sensors on J&S' page? And do I need anything else, or is everything in the Universal box for 595?

 

[charlief1]

Rich put a link to J&S in his post and I'd suggest that you look at it. The guy that builds them can give you more info than I can about them. If you just got the MSD BTM you can use them but it pulls timing from all the cylinders, where the J&S unit only pulls timing from each individual cylinder and has it's own knock sensor. If you got a 6AL and a separate BTM then you can use 6AL with the J&S unit. if it's a 6AL with the BTM as one unit then you can use it by itself but it's not as effective as the J&S unit at controlling knock.

 

[Mastiff]

Sorry about the late answer. The house stuff has taken me a hell of a lot of time... I will do that, then. But is it necessary to have this working before I even start the engine, or can I run it in and drive it carefully from A to B before I get that detonation stuff mounted? I can get a friend to bring me the stuff in August, but I just wonder if I must use a trailer to move the car out of the house at the end of July, with the engin put in.

 

[charlief1]

If you leave the waste gate open (disconnected) so no boost will develop then you can drive it safely Tor.

 

[Mastiff]

Great, thanks a lot! Then I will do that!

 

[canadian nascar]

Mastiff, just to let you know I have a J&S on my 301t pontiac

 

[Maxcubes]