Dropped the oil pan to start to diagnose and source of knock. Help and advice needed…

[Chrisssssssss]

Hey all,

At the end of last season I was driving the car and all of a sudden it just started knocking so I shut it down and got it towed home. Dropped the oil pan and didn’t really see any metal shavings in the oil but I did find some of these pieces in the oil pickup tube and maybe a few in the pan…

For scale, that is a lid size for a sour cream container.

Now I took the last connecting rod bearing journal apart and the bearings don’t look terribly bad on the contact surface but I did buy all new bearings set so I may as well replace them.
I will attach a picture of them when I get home. I forgot to take a pic of them.

I also found this when I took off the rod bearings:

If you look closer… they appear to be the same as the other pieces of stuff that I just showed you. But they were in the oil supply hole:

Closer still:

So I’m not too sure what these are pieces from but I’m thinking maybe from the oil pump? The oil pick up screen was completely covered in sludge and goo so it wasn’t getting good oil flow I’m sure. I will attach a pic of that also when I get home in a bit I just wanted to post this now just to get it out there. I bought new rod bearings and main bearings. I am gonna order a new oil pump shortly. Any thoughts or opinions? I’m not rich at the moment so a rebuild is out of the question for now.

I also remember hearing that a loose flex plate may also sound like a knock so I will also check that and see if there is anything that is loose there too.
Thanks in advance for the thoughts

Chris
86GN mostly stock with 125k miles

 

[PSID6]

They are from the stock timing set.

 

[PSID6]

Hey all,

At the end of last season I was driving the car and all of a sudden it just started knocking so I shut it down and got it towed home. Dropped the oil pan and didn’t really see any metal shavings in the oil but I did find some of these pieces in the oil pickup tube and maybe a few in the pan…
View attachment 394470
For scale, that is a lid size for a sour cream container.

Now I took the last connecting rod bearing journal apart and the bearings don’t look terribly bad on the contact surface but I did buy all new bearings set so I may as well replace them.
I will attach a picture of them when I get home. I forgot to take a pic of them.

I also found this when I took off the rod bearings:
View attachment 394471
If you look closer… they appear to be the same as the other pieces of stuff that I just showed you. But they were in the oil supply hole:
View attachment 394472
Closer still:

View attachment 394473
So I’m not too sure what these are pieces from but I’m thinking maybe from the oil pump? The oil pick up screen was completely covered in sludge and goo so it wasn’t getting good oil flow I’m sure. I will attach a pic of that also when I get home in a bit I just wanted to post this now just to get it out there. I bought new rod bearings and main bearings. I am gonna order a new oil pump shortly. Any thoughts or opinions? I’m not rich at the moment so a rebuild is out of the question for now.

I also remember hearing that a loose flex plate may also sound like a knock so I will also check that and see if there is anything that is loose there too.
Thanks in advance for the thoughts

Chris
86GN mostly stock with 125k miles

If you pull your timing cover off you will see where all those pieces came from

 

[BEATAV8]

Yep, stock plastic chain sprocket is falling apart.
Use a RollMaster roller set to replace it. And remember to NOT use the stock tensioner mechanism with a roller chain. Leave the tensioner out.

 

[mblum]

LIke PSID6 already stated those pieces are the nylon from the nylon coated stock timing gear. With age the plastic breaks down, starts to fall off the gear and goes through the oiling system, plugging them and starving the engine of oil

Without a way of getting those plastic fragments out of the oiling system, replacing the bearings and timing set may not fix the problem at this point. A rebuild is probally needed.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

Without a way of getting those plastic fragments out of the oiling system, replacing the bearings and timing set may not fix the problem at this point. A rebuild is probally needed.

^^^ This. NO WAY to ascertain that the debris is not elsewhere w/o a complete rebuild.
You are lucky that you didn't find the crank in the pan... Or hanging out the side of the block.

 

[Chrisssssssss]

Thanks for the replies. I will definitely look at the timing cover. Like I said I would love to do a rebuild but financially that is just not possible. In a perfect world, of course I would love to do that and more. However for right now, I will go through the engine and flush everything out and replace the timing pieces needed, the bearings, button it back up and see what I get. I very well could need a rebuild, or maybe I can get away with replacing what is needed for the moment, hope for the best and drive it for a bit until I can afford to get it done. I'm gonna take off the valve covers and the timing cover probably today and see. When I have the bearings out I am gonna see if I can flush the rest of the shrapnel out of the oil passages with some kinda spray cleaner and blast them out best I can. I will button it back up and see. Worst comes to worst, it will still need a rebuild. My labour is free. When I got the funds I will take it apart again and rebuild it.

Never know till you try... Just being realistic. The car was shut off as soon as some noise was heard. I am hoping for the best, and apart from a rebuild, what would be the best suggestions with the situation being as it is to have the best chances of trying to salvage the life outta what I got right now? What do you suggest the best possible way of flushing these pieces out? Any helpful tips or suggestions from you guys? I have a boroscope or whatever you call it camera thingy that I can fish through and look internally at things so that may be a useful tool...

My thought process here is that the pieces of debris at the moment are somewhat larger and bottom line is they are plastic, not metal so the chances of major damage would be less than if it was metal chunks being circulated in the oil.

Thanks again for the help... keep your fingers crossed for me. If I''m lucky enough not to find my crank in the pan, then maybe I will be lucky enough to get away with timing and bearings.

I will update posts as I go along. Maybe from here I will video the ordeal and start a youtube channel, get rich will millions of followers, then afford a rebuild. haha...

Until then, here goes nothing...

Chris

PS- gonna look now for sources of timing set. Any suggestions on where to get it? I live in Canada...

 

[Chrisssssssss]

Oh. Here’s a pic of the one bearing that I took out already.

I will post pics of the others as I take them out to be cleaned and replaced.

 

[BEATAV8]

It's worth a shot. When you have the front cover off, use lots of compressed air. Blow it in from the front, backwards as best you can, etc. The lifter galleries and cam bearing feeds will likely have some shite in there too.... You'd have to pull the lifters out and remove the cam to blow out those areas. Remember lifters must go back in exactly where they were. They cant be mixed up out of order as they become mated to their cam lobe.

At some point though.... it makes sense to just pull it out and clean it all up on an engine stand.

 

[Grumpy]

Ya have pieces in the crank. No telling where else it is. Ya may have better oil pressure where it's clogged with pieces. But I don't think it will live long. Good Luck.

 

[TIMINATOR]

Pull the engine.
Completely dissemble it.
Pull ALL of the oil galley plugs and run a rod thru them, end to end.
Dissemble the oil pump/filter/front cover assy and clean out every passage, including oil bypass passages.
Remove all lifters(keep them in order)
Don't forget to remove the rocker shafts assys, and clean everything.
Replace the oil pump and pickup.
Since you have the bearings, have the crank polished, and MAKE SURE all of its internal oil galleys are clean.
Now would be a good time to put a new Comp Cams flat tappet cam and lifters in there to go along with the new roller chain set.
With gaskets, oil pump, pickup, crank polishing, timing set and cam/lifters, you can get away for less than about $500.00.
Take all the time in the world cleaning and rodding out EVERYTHING!
Have a friend or two help, and don't be afraid to post pics and ask about anything you are not SURE of!
With patience and taking a lot of pics as you dissemble, you can do this!
TIMINATOR

 

[Chuck Leeper]

 

[GTP_ARGO]

How do pieces that big stuck in the crankshaft? Through an oil pickup screen, then the oil pump and through an oil filter. Maybe filter plugged and in bypass?

 

[~JM~]

What about piston to valve clearance when a timing chain fails?

 

[TIMINATOR]

I mentioned pump and screen, forgot p/v clearance. Since the ENTIRE engine is dissembled, take the heads to a shop and have them put a vacuum tester on the intake ports, if they don't hold vac, they need to be redone. Exhaust ports have egr ports in ALL of them, so the exhaust x over port and other 2 exhaust ports need to be sealed when testing them. Or fill chambers with liquid to test ex ports, or just dissemble the heads and check the valves.
You might see contact on piston tops, and valves, or not, depending....
OR sell me the car........
TIMINATOR

 

[hensleyt]

Pull the engine.
Completely dissemble it.
Pull ALL of the oil galley plugs and run a rod thru them, end to end.
Dissemble the oil pump/filter/front cover assy and clean out every passage, including oil bypass passages.
Remove all lifters(keep them in order)
Don't forget to remove the rocker shafts assys, and clean everything.
Replace the oil pump and pickup.
Since you have the bearings, have the crank polished, and MAKE SURE all of its internal oil galleys are clean.
Now would be a good time to put a new Comp Cams flat tappet cam and lifters in there to go along with the new roller chain set.
With gaskets, oil pump, pickup, crank polishing, timing set and cam/lifters, you can get away for less than about $500.00.
Take all the time in the world cleaning and rodding out EVERYTHING!
Have a friend or two help, and don't be afraid to post pics and ask about anything you are not SURE of!
With patience and taking a lot of pics as you dissemble, you can do this!
TIMINATOR

Just what I was wanting to say
Because if you don’t you will be buying a crank

 

[xlr8ngn]

If you can't afford a rebuild, then you certainly can't afford to not pull it apart, clean what you have, and reassemble with peace of mind. Above is good advise to not damage what you have further and cost you substantially more.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

A lot of these engines are run for many many miles with pieces of that nylon cover missing.
The PTV comes into play should the chain either break or slip. Or, in some cases, the gear breaks. Looks to be die cast aluminum.
Once the majority of the nylon is gone, the chain eats the teeth off, and it's "tango uniform" for the valvetrain.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

Just what I was wanting to say
Because if you don’t you will be buying a crank

Exactly right.
Those bearings already look like

 

[Marty Fairchild]

You will need to address the engine oil cooler inside the radiator.
Odds are pretty good it's full of the same debris you found elsewhere in your engine.
Unless you can verify that it is completely flushed out, it would be best to bypass it.