Duttweiller oil pump question

[Nashty]

Why do people use this? What's the advantage over modifying a stock front cover for an external pickup? I was looking at a front cover a while back with cue-ball and decided that the $500 Dutt may not be necessary.

Why, with a turbo saver set up, you'd even have external oil supply available. The feed passage to the oil pump is close enough that it would be a simple matter to add a fitting for an external pickup. You could then do all the usual tricks to your oil pump like hi-volume gears, cavitation block off, by-pass block off... I don't think it would be any worse than the Dutt system and you'd have maybe $30 in materials and welding done to accomplish it.

What am I missing?

 

[EightSecV6]

It makes things much more simple and neat looking. I never tried to modify the front cover to use a -12 sucton to the pump, I would think that would be fairly difficult to do.I have drilled into the side of the block and tied it into the pump suction for an external pickup on OFF CENTER engines, there is really no provision for it with an on center. The Dut system will flow much better on the inlet side and discharge side (not as many 90 deg turns and larger passages)and you wount have the hassle of tring to snake the suction line in and around the engine mount. It has an adjustable regulator too. I sell them for $375, they include the fittings too as well as the HV oil pump gears. After you buy a HV front cover, fittings etc etc, you probably wont be saving that much money?

 

[STP]

I oil my engine with a -12 moroso pickup in the pan into the side of the block. Just have to cut the "blind" hole in the gasket and bolt it up..Not sure if this is exactly what you're suggesting, but it has worked for me. However, it is a bit difficult to fit the pickup line around the engine mount as Bill said. Not any better with poly mounts.. I had to remove quite a bit of material from both the factory and poly mounts. Scott

 

[Nashty]

I'm just talking about plugging off the suction side hole in the block and then making a hole in the front cover passage from this hole to the pump inlet. The passage wouldn't be hard to plumb to. If the Dutt pump has better flow characteristics I can understand that but I've personally never had a failure from oil flow. I port the entire oil path when putting the engine together. That includes a gasket match on the cover and block.

I guess the $375 does buy some bling factor though. It's also one less thing you have to modify and can simply bolt on. There is some value to that I guess.

 

[STP]

Yea $375 for that setup is a good price..

 

[DR BOOST]

anyone have a pic of the mounting face of the dutt pump?

id like to know whats inside

 

[BAGN]

Originally posted by STP
Yea $375 for that setup is a good price..

That’s not to mention the $200 bucks you spend in braided line & earls fittings for the Duttweiler pump assembly. I've done the Hole in the side off the block & triming of the motor mount. Much cheaper & works fine. GOOD LUCK ON YOU DECISION.

 

[EightSecV6]

Originally posted by BAGN
That’s not to mention the $200 bucks you spend in braided line & earls fittings for the Duttweiler pump assembly. I've done the Hole in the side off the block & triming of the motor mount. Much cheaper & works fine. GOOD LUCK ON YOU DECISION.

If it is an on center, you have to drill 2 holes!!

 

[STP]

I take it those holes would be in the front cover right? I am running my turbo drain into the fuel pump block off plate...Only problem is with this new Champion A/C PS delete bracket there is not enough room for the hoseend....Weighing my options now. With my oil suction line coming up from the pass side of the pan there isn't much room to feed another line down for the drain. Was thinking about putting a hole in the front cover but there really isn't a good place for a fitting on the passenger side of the front cover..Stock front cover on an offcenter. BAGN where did you plumb your turbo drain? Any ideas Billy? Or should I just punt and go buy a FORD : )

 

[EightSecV6]

On center doesnt have the pickup in the block so you have to drill a hole through the front of the block to match the cover and then from the side for the p/up.
Put your turbo drain in the FRONT of the pan on the pass side

 

[STP]

Ahh I see...I have an early oncenter on the stand with pickup provisions. Didn't think about the later oncenters without...Thx Scott

 

[BAGN]

Originally posted by STP
. . . . BAGN where did you plumb your turbo drain? Or should I just punt and go buy a FORD : )

Put the oil return line on the pass. side front of your oil pan. Use a 1/2 pipe X # 10 an in your oil pan & use a #10 45degree hose end coming off that up to your oil drain @ turbo.

As far as buying a ford? As I always say . . . SPEED KILLS!!! Drive a ford and live forever.

 

[BAGN]

Originally posted by EightSecV6
If it is an on center, you have to drill 2 holes!!

Thats what that extra fitting was for !?! LOL

 

[Nashty]

You can plumb into the oil passage in the front cover and not drill any more holes in the block. You can also dump your turbo oil in the front cover too.

 

[summit]

Not that I would do it, but....

Given the Duttweiller setup uses a high volume cover with high volume big block gears (1/4 inch taller gears than a standard V6 high volume kit) what would happen if you tried to use the big block high volume gears with a spacer kit on a high volume V-6 cover in a production or off center stage motor without using an external pickup? Would it starve the pump? Overkill I know, just something I was wondering about.

Greg Kring
Arlington, texas
9.05 @ 150

 

[EightSecV6]

Greg,
The Dut. pump uses the STOCK cover with high volume gears.
Bill

 

[JDEstill]

Not sure how this would work with the Duttweiler setup, but with a production setup this is what I would think would happen:

1. Lets assume the spillback (ie piston/spring bypass assembly, pressure regulator, whatever you want to call it) has enough capacity to maintain the desired pressure no matter how much the pump flows. Let's say we've got it set at 70 psi.

2. At 70 psi and some given rpm, lets say 5000 rpm, the engine will take a given volume of oil. Lets say its 10 gpm.

3. No matter what the pump is doing, as long as it can maintain that 70 psi, the engine will take that 10 gpm.

4. So, you have 10 gpm leaving the cover and going into the engine. Therefore you need 10 gpm to come up through the pickup and through the block into the cover.

5. Now a production pump can do about 10 gpm I think. The high volume pump can do something more than that, 25% more? 12.5 gpm? And lets say this Duttweiler pump with even longer gears can do 15 gpm. What happens to the extra capacity? The engine can't take it, it can only take 10 gpm. So the excess circulates from the discharge through the piston/spring bypass assembly and back to the suction.

6. So if the prod pump has a 10 gpm capacity at the listed conditions, it will bypass 0 gpm. The std high vol pump will bleed 2.5 gpm back through the bypass. The extra high vol pump will bleed 5 gpm back through the bypass.

7. The big pump won't suck too hard on the pickup, because the flow through the pickup is the same that it always was, which is the same as the flow into the engine - 10 gpm.

8. If the bypass can't flow all that it has to, the pressure will rise so that the engine flow + the bypass flow = total pump flow. Suppose the bypass can only flow 3 gpm. Maybe at 100 psi the engine takes 12 gpm and the bypass takes 3 gpm. So the pressure will rise to 100 psi (despite our 70 psi spring) because that's where it balances out at.

9. Block the bypass, what happens? Engine has to take the full pump flow. What pressure does it take to force the engine to take the 15 gpm? 150 psi? 200 psi? Whatever it is, if that pressure is too high, parts then break.

John

 

[summit]

Wonder what pump I have? A while back I broke the cam sensor gear with a timing chain issue and had to replace the driven gear in the oil pump. I had to take a high volume big block gear and press it onto a v-6 pump driveshaft. The oil pump I have has the inlet and pressure lines coming out of the side. I have also seen another type of pump where the lines exit the bottom. I remember having three gears laid side by side comparing the heights. A stock V-6, high volume V-6, and the high volume v-8. Each gear was about 1/4 taller than the next. The high volume V-8 shaft was about 2 inches longer than the v-6 ones, therefore we had to swap out the shaft. Any ideas or am I crazy?

Greg Kring

 

[Jeff Rand]

I had been running the Duttweiler pump in my stage 2 and now in my TA block. With the same setup (1/2" i.d. pipe in the stock 14 bolt pan and a -12 line going to an external screen an then feeding the pump), I am having a problem after the run with the oil pressure going to zero. You can watch it drop from 70 psi as soon as you hit the brakes. I have tried to overfill the system with the same result. I can only assume that more oil stays on the top side of the TA block (second gen. block with oil drain back holes) and more baffling would be required in the pan and a modification to the pickup tube to turn it down to the bottom of the pan.
Jeff

 

[Ron Tarabori]

The first time I tried the Dutt system I ran the bypass line in the back of the block into the lifter galley. The thing bypassed so much oil it would suck the pan dry in no time. Then I ran the bypass into the pan. For what its worth when I started building stage engines I ran a stock pump with a Ruggles block off plate. 8000+ circle track motor and never had a problem. When i went on center i tossed the whole works and went dry sump. Now I've got 60 lbs all day long.