e85
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ChrisCairns
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
loki993 said:
that guys a bit outthere id say, i detected just a hint of left in that article
I don't know what "outthere" means...however I agree he leans to the left. I like that he quotes his sources and I do believe we're at peak oil, or slightly past it.
My guess for gas prices this coming summer will be $3.50 to $4.00 per gallon.
loki993 said:
Try it... you'll see how wrong you are
Suffice to say, its great for a race car. Try starting a race car on a cold day or try putting 50,000 miles on a race car in a humid climate and you will be a firm believer in fossil fuels.
loki993 said:
Since you didn't use any paragraphs this is going to be tough but I'll give it a shot.
#1 Don't believe the propaganda about Brazil being energy independent. Only 13% of their energy comes from renewables like ethanol. Twice the US, no where near the hype.
Brazil mandates only 20% ethanol in their gas and that is all they run (buses may run 100%, but in the US we have way cleaner CNG buses). They DO NOT run 100% Ethanol in cars. That was their goal back in the 70's, (and your grade school textbooks probably treated their "goal" like it actually happened, but it didn't).
Ethanol is cleaner on paper, but Brazilian cities still have some of the worst smog and Air pollution in the world. I'm still trying to figure out why this is so, being the Ethanol utopia and all.
If you are worried about $7.00 Gasoline, Ethanol isn't the answer. Even at $4.00 gasoline the vast resources of the US will rear their Ugly heads.
We have a 500 year supply of $4.00/gallon gasoline, 30 feet below the surface of montana in coal. There is another 500 year supply of $4.00 Gallon gasoline 100 feet below the surface of Colorado in oil shale.
Just like Brazil, the US realizies that it is currently cheaper to be energy dependant than it is to become independent.
If you are building a race car, E85 is great. If you are looking for an alternative to fuel your FFV SUV (like the current GM go yellow hype), E85 sucks.
If GM spent 1/2 the "go yellow" marketing money on a L6 4.0L Diesel, they might actually make a difference.
I dont feel like offering up a detailed counter to what you just posted since you've very clearly made up your mind but your post has errors UNGN
(No comment on getting oil from coal, didnt even know that was possible, i know it can be extracted from oil shale, we definately arent running out of that, peak oil is a bunch of nonsense)
just two quick points
do research on the use of e100, pretty sure you're off on that, look at my link below
ethanol replaces 40% of the fossil fuels that would otherwise be consumed in brazil in the article below, where do you get your data?
gm wouldnt go through the trouble of producing unique cal's with huge injectors for export cars to brazil if it was only going to sell a few cars
second
the air pollution problems in brazil during the ethanol switch is because farmers burned fields, this has now been outlawed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil
(No comment on getting oil from coal, didnt even know that was possible, i know it can be extracted from oil shale, we definately arent running out of that, peak oil is a bunch of nonsense)
just two quick points
do research on the use of e100, pretty sure you're off on that, look at my link below
ethanol replaces 40% of the fossil fuels that would otherwise be consumed in brazil in the article below, where do you get your data?
gm wouldnt go through the trouble of producing unique cal's with huge injectors for export cars to brazil if it was only going to sell a few cars
second
the air pollution problems in brazil during the ethanol switch is because farmers burned fields, this has now been outlawed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil
My info didn't come from Wikipedia or Pro ethanol groups, but the US department of Energy. Here are some highlights:
"In 2001, Brazil was the third largest energy consumer in the Western Hemisphere and the largest in Central and South America. In 2001, Brazil consumed approximately 8.8 quadrillion Btus (quads), slightly above Mexico (6.0 quads), but below both the United States (97.1 quads) and Canada (12.5 quads). Petroleum accounts for about 51% of Brazil's total energy consumption, hydroelectric power 31%, renewable energy sources 13%, natural gas 4%, and nuclear 1.7%."
"The use of ethanol to fuel automobiles was initiated partially in response to the oil shock of 1973, and as an alternative to oil to promote self-sufficiency. In 1975, the government created the Brazilian National Alcohol Program to regulate the ethanol market and encourage the production and use of fuel ethanol. The program guaranteed that all gasoline sold in the country would be blended with 22% anhydrous ethanol and that the pump price would remain competitive with gasoline. Past sugarcane crop problems have slightly altered the percentage of ethanol in Brazilian gasoline, however, mandated levels have usually remained at around 20%."
"On June 1, 2003, the Brazilian government raised the ethanol mix in gasoline from 20% to 25%. In July 2003, Volkswagen announced plans to have its entire Brazilian fleet's engine converted from conventional to bi-fuel version by 2006. A bi-fuel engine can run on either gasoline or ethanol (Flexible Fuel Vehicles). Ethanol usually offers consumers a cheaper option to gasoline. In the past, Brazilians became wary of relying on ethanol due supply problems and cheap oil prices"
The Wikipedia article was pretty misleading (who measures liquid fuel in Cubic meters?). The above is pretty straight forward.
"In 2001, Brazil was the third largest energy consumer in the Western Hemisphere and the largest in Central and South America. In 2001, Brazil consumed approximately 8.8 quadrillion Btus (quads), slightly above Mexico (6.0 quads), but below both the United States (97.1 quads) and Canada (12.5 quads). Petroleum accounts for about 51% of Brazil's total energy consumption, hydroelectric power 31%, renewable energy sources 13%, natural gas 4%, and nuclear 1.7%."
"The use of ethanol to fuel automobiles was initiated partially in response to the oil shock of 1973, and as an alternative to oil to promote self-sufficiency. In 1975, the government created the Brazilian National Alcohol Program to regulate the ethanol market and encourage the production and use of fuel ethanol. The program guaranteed that all gasoline sold in the country would be blended with 22% anhydrous ethanol and that the pump price would remain competitive with gasoline. Past sugarcane crop problems have slightly altered the percentage of ethanol in Brazilian gasoline, however, mandated levels have usually remained at around 20%."
"On June 1, 2003, the Brazilian government raised the ethanol mix in gasoline from 20% to 25%. In July 2003, Volkswagen announced plans to have its entire Brazilian fleet's engine converted from conventional to bi-fuel version by 2006. A bi-fuel engine can run on either gasoline or ethanol (Flexible Fuel Vehicles). Ethanol usually offers consumers a cheaper option to gasoline. In the past, Brazilians became wary of relying on ethanol due supply problems and cheap oil prices"
The Wikipedia article was pretty misleading (who measures liquid fuel in Cubic meters?). The above is pretty straight forward.
Pablo said:
One of the three things the Nazi's were good for.
The other two were the Jet Engine and the Liquid Fuel Rocket Engine.
UNGN said:
I get the annual report, you make assumptions.
Doesn't the gov't subsidize evil oil company exploration?
E85 isn't mixed by the alcohol producers anyway, it's the distributors who do that. It is mixed with gasoline at the facility so the plant doesn't have to have a liquor license (odd, but true). All the problems with it are manageable. E85, like ALL gasoline formulations are mixed for seasonal changes, the cold starting and warm weather issues are easily enough addressed.
Energy used to make the alcohol is generated by coal in my plant.
Soon, you'll be able to run it in your lawn mowers thanks to California, among others.
Ethanal production is good for the country and keeps less dollars from being exported. Cheer up will ya?
i was just asking what it took, thats what i said i thought it took, if im wrong let me know what it talke so i can get my facts srtaight.
i dont remember anything about brazil in my grade school textbooks, that was a while ago. i saw the thing about brazil on the history channel, they said they were completly independant. also it said they have gas also but its about 2x more than the ethanol. i was just going with what that said, not always the best source, but not bad either.
also you seem to be very combative, im not trying to get into a pi##ing contest with you, but you seem to think i am, or you are trying to start one. im just trying to have a civilized conversation, if im taking that the wrong way or if i am comming off wrong im my posts, i apoligize, but thats the way im seeing it.
as for my lack of paragraph use, well grammar is not my strong suite for sure( more of a history and science guy), i tend to just plaster everything on the page that comes to mind, on top of that i type too fast and mispell a few words here and there also, so i apologize for that.
as for the peak oil thing, i never said i thought we were gonna run out of oil or anything like that. i dont really believe anything i read in that article, basically it came down to the US is going to attack all the oil producing countries for their oil, if you read that far, i wish i didnt. i said we need more e85 and other alternitave fuel for more independance. i know we can never be fully independant, i think one way or another we can cut down our dependance.
Nashty said:
So let me get this straight... the dirtiest form of energy we have is used to make ethanol... kinda shoots down the whole "ethanol is better for the air" doesn't it?
I have Zero problems with anyone wanting to use Ethanol as additive for gasoline in high performance applications. This is great.
You want to build a race car to run E85, this is great, too.
E85 as a replacement for gasoline to be used in FFV SUV's is freaking stupid, however, for the following reasons:
1. It Isn't better for the environment.
2. Net Greenhouses gas emissions are MORE
3. Gas mileage drops off a cliff
4. It diverts government money away from REAL alternative fuels
5. Cold weather is not E85's strong suit, so lets all put in in our 4X4's !!!!
I don't own stock in an Ethanol plant. I'm only calling them like I see them.
UNGN said:
Coal isn't that dirty. That is an old invalid argument. But hey, I'm making progress, your arguements are going sideways now.
Ethanol is a higher oxygen content fuel, it IS better for the environment when burned.
Greenhouse gasses are lower with it, pretend it's made with hydro electric power. And corn production LOWERS greenhouse gasses AND feeds you with the byproduct of ethanol production (mash).
EVERYTHING diverts gov't money. Like I said, even evil oil companies do that too. Besides, what ground do oil companies own that they pump off of ?? It's all gov't owned, they only lease the mineral rights.
Cold weather arguements? From a Texan?? Tell me about how bad diesel gelling is too while you're at it.
Ethanol is distilled right?
How does crude oil turn into gasoline? DISTILLATION. Which also uses a tremendous amount of energy?
That article doesn't seem to have a point beyond how bad ethanol is.
Look at it simply, without numbers or facts. Just your own common sense.
Ethanol is made here in the USA, we probably produce enough oil here in the US to supplement that between the E85 and gas we get from you fine Texans (and Alaskans and every other little pump stuck in the ground around the US) that we could really make a dent in oil imports.
It uses corn, which is cheap, and not as the article states (laughably) that corn production is bad for the US. It also fails to mention that there are other stocks that can be used in ethanol production that even surpass corn in sugar content and are cheap to produce.
It's full of oxygen, burns clean and is much better to deal with if it spills.
I'd like to see it help develop the ag economy and reduce foreign imports. The global oil situation will only get worse as China & India get richer. Deal with a solution now, don't just decry the demerits of it.
Besides, it's 110 octane, just think how fast your Buick will be. :biggrin:
How does crude oil turn into gasoline? DISTILLATION. Which also uses a tremendous amount of energy?
That article doesn't seem to have a point beyond how bad ethanol is.
Look at it simply, without numbers or facts. Just your own common sense.
Ethanol is made here in the USA, we probably produce enough oil here in the US to supplement that between the E85 and gas we get from you fine Texans (and Alaskans and every other little pump stuck in the ground around the US) that we could really make a dent in oil imports.
It uses corn, which is cheap, and not as the article states (laughably) that corn production is bad for the US. It also fails to mention that there are other stocks that can be used in ethanol production that even surpass corn in sugar content and are cheap to produce.
It's full of oxygen, burns clean and is much better to deal with if it spills.
I'd like to see it help develop the ag economy and reduce foreign imports. The global oil situation will only get worse as China & India get richer. Deal with a solution now, don't just decry the demerits of it.
Besides, it's 110 octane, just think how fast your Buick will be. :biggrin:
just did a quick search on what you can make ethanol out of here are some:
corn
sorghum
wheat
potato skins
rice
yard clippings
barley
sunflower
potatoes
sugar cane
sugar beets
just a few thing that you can make ethanol out of.
just for the record also, i do like ethanol, but i am for any alternate fuel that can get us closer to being more energy independant. so im also for bio desiel, propane and anything else.
i also think the auto makers should stop messing with fuel cells and get somw cars out that will run on hydrogen. you can convert an engine to run on pure hydrogen, but for some reson they want to make fuel cells. we need to not worry about the environment right now and concentrate on less foreign dependance for our fuel, when were closer to that, than we can try and make cars cleaner. thats what i think.
corn
sorghum
wheat
potato skins
rice
yard clippings
barley
sunflower
potatoes
sugar cane
sugar beets
just a few thing that you can make ethanol out of.
just for the record also, i do like ethanol, but i am for any alternate fuel that can get us closer to being more energy independant. so im also for bio desiel, propane and anything else.
i also think the auto makers should stop messing with fuel cells and get somw cars out that will run on hydrogen. you can convert an engine to run on pure hydrogen, but for some reson they want to make fuel cells. we need to not worry about the environment right now and concentrate on less foreign dependance for our fuel, when were closer to that, than we can try and make cars cleaner. thats what i think.
loki993 said:
The Push to make Hydrogen Fuel Cells is because an internal combustion Hydrogen car is so inefficient, no one will ever drive one. Who wants a car that will only go 100 miles between fillups? Not me.
Also, Hydrogen is made from natural gas, not the water like everyone thinks.
To make Hydrogen from water to replace oil we would need to more than double the nations electrical generating capacity. Without MASSIVE investments in Nuclear power, this AINT GONNA HAPPEN.
The "Hydrogen Economy" was a pipe dream from the likes of Enron, that needs to go the way of Enron.
Low Sulfur Diesel from coal gasification with carbon sequestration is the ANSWER to the energy independence question. It will involve strip mining "wilderness" in Montana but it will provide hundreds of years of clean automotive fuel to the US and complete energy independence (although we will still buy gas from foreigners because it is cheap).
As for Ethanol, it has it's place. Just not in FFV SUV's. My beef with Ethanol and E85 in particular is that they way it is being introduced and marketed, it is going to turn more people off of it than it will turn on.
Put E85 in your Avalanche in the summer and when you get 9 mpg instead of the usual 13, that will pretty much end you buying E85, right then and there.
If instead, they had an "E85" version of the turbo solstice that had and auxillary 5 gallon tank for E85 that net 325 HP on E85 and 230 HP on Gasoline, it would pretty much ensure you'd fill up with E85 every tank.
If Ethanol and E85 is to survive without government subisides (the goal, I hope) there will need to be a demand for it. FFV SUV's will kill the demand.
camaro75racer
New Member
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2005
Ok, so this stuff is good as an additive....what if i start doing say a 50/50 or 70/30 mix in the tank with premium gas and E85? I just wanna know what it may hurt. These hot-air cars really like octane if you turning boost up. Would i hurt my car? If so what to change so it wouldnt hurt anything...evn if im not running 100% E85.
camaro75racer said:
If you put it your tank, it might hurt a lot of stuff.
Ethanol + Water will make acetic acid. Acid = corrosion. Bad.
No one is jumping on the E85 conversion kits because of this and other problems. If you are starting from scratch, run stainless everything.
best to stick with an alchol injections
Just had to jump in here to point out a few things.
#1. The increase in hp you get with a comp increase is due to the fact that the efficiency of any internal combustion engine is directly proportional to the compression ratio, (well actually compression to expansion ratio, but it's the same for most), and not because of an increased fuel flow.
#2. You CAN get nearly identical mpg on ethanol as you do on gasoline, with more power, if, and only if, the engine is built to take advantage of the increased octane by bumping the compression.
#3. Ethanol does have a positive net energy (takes less btu's to make than it contains). But don't let that fool you into thinking it could substitute for gasoline on a large scale. In the US we simply use to much gasoline to make this a viable alternative. Even with the best technologies converting corn into ethanol, we'd need to devote a land mass greater than Alaska solely to ethanol production. There have been studies done about using the waste from ethanol production as livestock feed, but I still don't think the scale is there.
#4. Corn is a terrible feedstock to use for ethanol, yield per acre it's one of the worst. I think the corn farmers are driving the use of corn as a feedstock.
#5. The whole hydrogen economy/fuel cell issue is IMO the biggest fraud the government has tried to pull on the public. REAL fuel-cell efficiency is at best comparable to a state-of-the-art IC engine
Fuel Cell Efficiency Hydrogen from water is always going to be a net energy loser, and hydrogen from fossil fuels doesn't really gain anything except funding to a privileged few involved in the hyrdrogen economy research industry.
#6. Somewhat unrelated, but here's a breakdown of where we get our crude from, should suprise you: Oil Imports
#1. The increase in hp you get with a comp increase is due to the fact that the efficiency of any internal combustion engine is directly proportional to the compression ratio, (well actually compression to expansion ratio, but it's the same for most), and not because of an increased fuel flow.
#2. You CAN get nearly identical mpg on ethanol as you do on gasoline, with more power, if, and only if, the engine is built to take advantage of the increased octane by bumping the compression.
#3. Ethanol does have a positive net energy (takes less btu's to make than it contains). But don't let that fool you into thinking it could substitute for gasoline on a large scale. In the US we simply use to much gasoline to make this a viable alternative. Even with the best technologies converting corn into ethanol, we'd need to devote a land mass greater than Alaska solely to ethanol production. There have been studies done about using the waste from ethanol production as livestock feed, but I still don't think the scale is there.
#4. Corn is a terrible feedstock to use for ethanol, yield per acre it's one of the worst. I think the corn farmers are driving the use of corn as a feedstock.
#5. The whole hydrogen economy/fuel cell issue is IMO the biggest fraud the government has tried to pull on the public. REAL fuel-cell efficiency is at best comparable to a state-of-the-art IC engine
Fuel Cell Efficiency Hydrogen from water is always going to be a net energy loser, and hydrogen from fossil fuels doesn't really gain anything except funding to a privileged few involved in the hyrdrogen economy research industry.
#6. Somewhat unrelated, but here's a breakdown of where we get our crude from, should suprise you: Oil Imports
