Ebay 200-4r: Did I get what I paid for?

[Nocturnaloner]

So I took a gamble, and bought a 200-4r transmission on ebay. The seller claims it to be "suitable up to 500 horsepower and above". His feedback is good. If it's good to anything over 400hp, it should be more than adequate to my purpose.

Question: Given this laundry list of mods and features, what can I confirm or disprove without taking it in to a trans shop for a teardown?

(Translated from all-caps description, with numerous typos)
"Specially modified pump with fixed slide for high-RPM pressure increase
Pressure regulator full-time lube modification
Large boost valve
10 vane pump
Teflon pump bushing fixed in place, and enlarged drain back passage to prevent front seal blowout
Third gear direct 8 relined (redlined?) frictions (drum modified to use both chambers for third apply)
Forward clutch, 5 frictions
Fourth Clutch, 2 relined (redlined?) frictions
Low reverse clutch, 7 Alomatic frictions
Kevlar wide band (20% wider than stock)
Fairbanks Super servo
Hardened sun shell
Shift kit - all valve bodies upgraded to exceed GN (GM?) specs
New seals and rings.
The planetaries are modified for additional lube"

 

[Hacksaw]

Well, let's take a look at what they claim first:

"Specially modified pump with fixed slide for high-RPM pressure increase"
-I don't know if "fixing" means the slide can't move at all, or if this just means the double spring set up that came from the factory later on for the slide. And DID they used improved pump rings? If not, you risk BIG trouble. The stock rings are know to break at ANY time.

"Pressure regulator full-time lube modification"
-This is easy to do yourself if you know where to gring the valve.

"Large boost valve"
-OK, is this larger than what GM offers, or just larger that what it came with? A size would be nice.

"10 vane pump","Hardened sun shell"
-GM switched to a 10 vane pump & hardened sun shell in the mid 80's.

"Teflon pump bushing fixed in place, and enlarged drain back passage to prevent front seal blowout"
-I don't think the Teflon coated bushing is stock, but I'm confused if they just used the 690 pump casting with the larger drain back, or if they drilled it. You can drill it yourself if you are very carefull.

"Fourth Clutch, 2 relined (redlined?) frictions"
-Since it's easy to modify this clutch to take 3 frictions during overhaul I would not say this is the ultimate for this clutch.

"Third gear direct 8 relined (redlined?) frictions (drum modified to use both chambers for third apply)"
-There is debate about adding dirct clutches making durability worse. The modified drum is a good idea.

Here are what some other builders do:
http://www.drwtransmission.com/thm_200-4r.htm
http://www.montecarloss.com/SSThunder/drivetrain.html
http://www.ptsnctb.com/

The last one, Bruce's link, gives a lot of good detail & caution about what they do.

-Mike H.

 

[Nocturnaloner]

Thanks Mike!

Be aware that I am a total novice when it comes to automatic transmissions. What I need is an 'Auto Trans 101' type article, and a good basic reference to the 200-4r for a start.

Thanks for the assessment of their claims, that is important, but I go back to my original question:

How much of this can I confirm without spending the cash to have a professional go through it?

 

[KEhrhardt]

How much of this can I confirm without spending the cash to have a professional go through it?

Well... you ought to be able to tell altleast if the Superior servo is there by looking at it. As far as the pump and the clutches are concerned, you are going on faith unless you want to disassemble. You could pull the pan and see a few of the low/reverse clutches without too much trouble. While the pan is off, the PR valve and Boost valve could be verified in the pump. But... if you doubted the builder in the first place why did you buy it?

 

[Nocturnaloner]

Well... you ought to be able to tell altleast if the Superior servo is there by looking at it.

No, honestly. If I had to guess, I'd say that's the shiny billet round thing, right? :biggrin: That's the level we're at here.

As far as the pump and the clutches are concerned, you are going on faith unless you want to disassemble. You could pull the pan and see a few of the low/reverse clutches without too much trouble.

Great. Which ones? Any Diagrams?

While the pan is off, the PR valve and Boost valve could be verified in the pump.

Great. Any Diagrams?

But... if you doubted the builder in the first place why did you buy it?

It's not a matter of doubt. If the builder delivers what he claims, people deserve to know about it. Same if the opposite is true. I have some evidence (feedback, including one from a Monte SS owner) that he does good work. I saved at least $500 over what the 'name' builders are charging. If an ebay seller is providing good value, and I can confirm that, everyone wins.

Thanks for your reply!

 

[Hacksaw]

Verifying some of those items would require you to disassemble the Trans. This will also void your Waranty. The PR valve mod & Boost valve would require taking the pan off, & remove the PR valve train from the pump. Not a good idea if you are new to transmissions.

 

[Spl170s]

Assuming you have bought the trans already. I would not open it up just to confirm the work he is claiming. Especially if you are new to transmissions. I would take a experienced builder to know what your looking at inside an automatic transmission.

Drive it till it breaks then question the build! :biggrin:

 

[Nocturnaloner]

As for voiding the warranty, probably not. Here's what they have in their ads:

WARRANTY IS ONE YEAR FROM DATE OF DELIVERY , ITS A SIMPLE WARRANTY YOU RETURN TO US WE REPAIR AND RETURN TO YOU , WE BELEAVE THIS IS THE BEST 2004R AVAILABLE IN THIS PRICE RANGE AND WE STAND BEHIND WHAT WE SELL IF IT BREAKS YOU SEND IT TO USE AND WE WILL REPAIR IT IT WILL COST YOU ONLY SHIPPING ONE WAY WE WILL HANDLE SHIPPING BACK , WE WONT SAY OR USE EXCUSES LIKE IT MUST BE PROFESSIONALLY INSTALLED ECT YOU SEND IT BACK AND WE WILL FIX IT ,

Again, thanks to all for the info so far. I know this is just the beginning of my education. Further Googling reveals at least one user on an Olds forum who bought from this shop and had no complaints. I also discovered the ATSG manual, which will give me the basic anatomical breakdown I'm looking for. Since I'll be installing a Bowtie Overdrives TV kit, I'll have their help in setting that up (I think the internal part involves swapping one spring), and I probably won't dig much deeper than that.

 

[KEhrhardt]

Like others have said, I would assume all is well (i.e. drive it until it breaks). The ATSG manual will give you the PR valve line up, the manual can be had rather cheaply (<$20 usually). If you really want step by step specifics on a performance rebuild, buy the CK performance manual for $65. There is also a video available on rebuilding the unit for around $25. From your initial description, it sounds like they are dual feeding the direct clutches. Without a billet forward drum to take the abuse you may be needing that rebuild manual after all. Good Luck with it.

 

[chris718]

There Aint No Debate About The Dual Feed.the Only Ones Who Are Skeptical Are Those Who Havent Done It,it Works Plain And Simple.if You Dont Use A Billet Drum You Will Break It With The Dual Feed For Sure.

 

[Grumpy]

how much was this "deal" ???? whats the HP of your turbo Buick ??

 

[Hacksaw]

Chris:

I wasn't debating dual feed for the Direct Clutch. The additional clutches there is what is debated. And yes, I know that will firm up the 2-3 shift by dual feed. I heard that tip years ago for the 200.

-Mike H.

 

[Nocturnaloner]

how much was this "deal" ???? whats the HP of your turbo Buick ??

I don't have a turbo Buick. This is going into a 63 Nova with an average street small block up front, no more than 400hp. Total cost, with shipping, was about $1070, including a 2000 stall converter.

Sounds almost too good to be true, but I just got an email reply from someone who is very happy with their 4L60E at the same level "xstream street/strip". In any case, the seller is megamaxtrannys, if an ebay search didn't make it obvious. The consensus is, they're not much for exterior details or careful packing, but the transmissions themselves are what they're claimed to be.

 

[Grumpy]

well install it and let it rip !!! :biggrin:

 

[2quiktocare]

Being that you have already purchased the unit, go ahead and run it. At this point it doesn't matter what is claimed to be or not to be in this trans, you own it. Give it some reality and see how it works for you.

Mark

 

[85HOT-T]

Let me know how that tranny works out. I am ganna need a rebuild, so If i can get one delivered at my door for 1000, why not eh. Alway can have a spare I guess

 

[Nocturnaloner]

Ok, I forwarded some of your questions on to the builder, and I quoted his reply in blue:

Well, let's take a look at what they claim first:

"Specially modified pump with fixed slide for high-RPM pressure increase"
-I don't know if "fixing" means the slide can't move at all, or if this just means the double spring set up that came from the factory later on for the slide. And DID they used improved pump rings? If not, you risk BIG trouble. The stock rings are know to break at ANY time.

"We actually use a solid spring eliminating movment of the slide. The rings are hardened."

"Large boost valve"
-OK, is this larger than what GM offers, or just larger that what it came with? A size would be nice.

"The boost valve is either a 490 or 500."

"Teflon pump bushing fixed in place, and enlarged drain back passage to prevent front seal blowout"
-I don't think the Teflon coated bushing is stock, but I'm confused if they just used the 690 pump casting with the larger drain back, or if they drilled it. You can drill it yourself if you are very carefull.

"We drill out the drain back unless it's already the larger casting."

This sounds like the one controversial thing, but there you go:

From your initial description, it sounds like they are dual feeding the direct clutches.

"We stopped dual feeding the direct clutch sometime
back due to complaints or a delayed reverse engagement,
however there was no noticable change in direct
holding or aplication . The dual feed can cause as
much as a 10 second delay in rev engagement."

Hope this helps any who are interested, and I'll dig up this thread and update when I actually get to drive the thing.

 

[TexasT]

I hate to bring this back to the top

This sounds like the one controversial thing, but there you go:



"We stopped dual feeding the direct clutch sometime
back due to complaints or a delayed reverse engagement,
however there was no noticable change in direct
holding or aplication . The dual feed can cause as
much as a 10 second delay in rev engagement."

Hope this helps any who are interested, and I'll dig up this thread and update when I actually get to drive the thing.

I wondered what this builder is doing to cause the reverse engagement to have such a delay. I have read the ck book and it seems straight forward. Maybe he is not blocking the center support bolt hole. Just thought I'd ask for clarification. TIA

Rich

 

[PaCemkr86]

can you post the ebay link??

 

[KevinB]

can you post the ebay link??

I don't know if ebay keeps the auctions for that long (2005)?