Failed CA smog.

[kjizzle]

Ok, I knew it was going fail, but I didn;t think it would fail so nicely. I bought it from Idaho, where it's exempt, and the CARFAX showed previous emissions failures, so this was not unexpected.

First, the numbers. HC was 73, max 88. CO was 0.23, max 0.55. NO is what failed, 947, max 768, and only on the 15MPH test. All of them passed at 25. Since it passed at 25MPH, is EGR suspect? That's an easy replacement, but I'm wondering if the cat is gutted. The CO2 was 14.8 and 15, and o2 was 0.2 and 0.1.

Second, I failed evap. How likely is it that it's tank related? Can i get away with replacing the charcoal canister?

This, I had visual failures because "the cat was welded instead of bolted on." OK, whatever, that's $40 at a muffler shop to weld flanges on. He failed me because of the FP gauge on the rail and the ScanMaster. Also, because the stock vacuum lines were replaced with new ones that "don't look stock". This is my first go with any emissions testing, much less CA, so this is all new to me.

 

[Heisenberg]

LOL - you said CA - but does that stand for California or Communist China?

I've read somewhere where - same deal - emissions - guys force it into open loop or something with ALDL jumpers - or something along those lines.

Isn't the evap test just that pressure test they run with their own gas tank cap doo hickey?
That FP hanger ring and gasket are pretty darned tight - don't see it leaking there but it's possible.
The little 5/16" check valve at the Charcoal Cannister may be leaking under pressure - but that's after the electric solenoid...soo...hmmm..not feeling that
You might could sneak in a 3/8" check valve right where the tank vent line turns to hose before the charcoal cannister.
Because I think it just has to hold pressure for like 15 seconds or whatever.
But Deputy Dawg might spot it too...

 

[lolo86GN]

Readings aren't too bad... you almost passed. Have the CAT checked out as it's possible that it's gutted. Do you know what chip you have? Some chips disable EGR function. EVAP failure could be a couple things. Both the gas cap and the EVAP system get pressurized and tested for leaks. What part of this test did you fail? An Emissions chip will help you all around as it will bring down timing to help you pass. Lastly I would go to another smog shop as this guy saying vacuum hoses aren't stock is being ridiculous.

 

[Heisenberg]

Readings aren't too bad... you almost passed. Have the CAT checked out as it's possible that it's gutted. Do you know what chip you have? Some chips disable EGR function. EVAP failure could be a couple things. Both the gas cap and the EVAP system get pressurized and tested for leaks. What part of this test did you fail? An Emissions chip will help you all around as it will bring down timing to help you pass. Lastly I would go to another smog shop as this guy saying vacuum hoses aren't stock is being ridiculous.

I got to thinking about my reply earlier and that EVAP test.
I have never paid any attention to what they are looking for, or if they conducted it with engine on or off.
I wondered if it is conducted ENGINE ON, they are watching for the ECM to command solenoid actuation (EVAP to intake) (when vacuum is present at idle)
Or was it ENGINE OFF
Or both?
If engine off, I believe they use their own gas cap thingy, so it must be checking for leaks in the system and I guess they use your gas cap on their thingy to check that as well?
My instincts tell me they conduct it ENGINE OFF and want to see if the system can stay pressurized for what - like 30 seconds or something as I recall watching the ltitle icon move.
Since if the engine is running at idle, I do believe the ECM, if it senses vacuum - or idle speed, tells the evap solenoid valve to open. Bob or Eric know the code better than me.
That's why I recommended a 3/8" check valve, right where the hard line comes up off the driver's side frame.
It turns to vacuum line right there, and it seems to me you could easily sneak a NAPA 3/8" check valve in there.

I know from experience (using a boost tester) - that that factory 5/16" check valve that gets plumbed from the intake vacuum lines that is right near the charcoal canister can leak under boost.
It seems to reason that if it does, it might somehow "damage" the solenoid (valve seat or such). - or the solenoid valve stays slightly open, allowing the pressure test to fail.

And I suppose instead of guessing, one could stick a blow nozzle in the end of the rubber line and check the evap solenoid- with regulated air at say 15 psi or so or whatever they use.
That way you would sort of know if the solenoid valve seat was ok. Such as they are.

 

[kjizzle]

Evap is done engine off. They clamp the line before the solenoid, so it's not even in play. I talked to the guy who used to do our smog stuff in the shop I work at (I work at an Audi dealership and we just don't do smog there anymore) and he said that it looked like EGR was the culprit.

I'm going to go to a test and repair shop so they can do a smoke test to look for leaks between the charcoal canister and the tank.

 

[Heisenberg]

Evap is done engine off. They clamp the line before the solenoid, so it's not even in play. I talked to the guy who used to do our smog stuff in the shop I work at (I work at an Audi dealership and we just don't do smog there anymore) and he said that it looked like EGR was the culprit.

I'm going to go to a test and repair shop so they can do a smoke test to look for leaks between the charcoal canister and the tank.

Assume you mean EGR was the culprit for the other part of the fail.
Eric and Bob's chips I don't think use EGR - so the above was a good call about trying a stock or emissions chip.

Interesting that they actually get under the hood and fiddle with lines.
In GA they just slap that gas cap thingy on.
Although in Ga, all of my Regals are officially exempt now.

Smoke works good - or as I said, you could do the reverse, stab the end of a blow nozzle in the rubber vent line hose - up where it goes to the charcoal canister, but go backwards toward the tank this time. Some kiddie blow bubble stuff from Dollar Tree or a good ear with the car on a lift and you will spot it - it it's there.
Even though that FP hanger is on top and damned hard to spray any blow bubble on - so smoke might be the ticket for that.
Hell - could just be a gas cap.
Or - maybe a leaky rubber hose at the sender to hard line area.
Those can get kinda funky over time.

 

[kjizzle]

I've got an emissions chip on the way. CA smog uses their own gas cap as far as I could tell. The system pressurized the line and tank.

This car is dead stock, so I don't think that it even has a chip. According to the dot on the scanmaster, it's closed loop idle. It's so stock, it even has the "TB0 348" tag on the turbo. It's not the one in signature. I just bought a super clean 86 from Idaho where emissions are not a problem.

 

[Heisenberg]

My total bad
From the Buick service manual
To check tank
Apply 1 to 1.5 lbs of pressure
Not the 15 I guessed at.
Boy - 1 to 1.5 lbs sure doesn't sound like enough to find a leak.

 

[kjizzle]

I'm working to replace the check valves, but the San Francisco Bay area isn't too friendly to DIY mechanics. You have to go south or east for that, and I don't want to pay the bridge toll just to buy a $4 valve. Even tools for professionals are hard to come by here.

 

[Heisenberg]

If it is stock, and using the EGR, it usually pukes a code 32 if there is a bad EGR.
But that little filter on the back side of the EGR solenoid valve is a common offender.
(Under that a round cap on the back side)
Not the entire unit itself.
If you plan on staying bone stock, including the EGR, grab a replacement filter if you don't end up changing out the EGR solenoid with new.
But finding a replacement won't be hard, since most people rip them off - and I think they are kind of cheap even at AdvanceO'ReillyAutoZone

EGR - EXHAUST GAS RECIRCULATION- Method of reducing NOx emission levels.

EGR (Duty Cycle)
The EGR system uses a valve to feed a small amount of exhaust gas back into the intake manifold to control formation of NOx.
Like all ECM outputs the "SCAN" tool only indicates that the ECM has commanded the function and does not indicate that the function has really happened.
EGR Position
Indicates the position of the EGR pintle.

 

[Heisenberg]

I'm working to replace the check valves, but the San Francisco Bay area isn't too friendly to DIY mechanics. You have to go south or east for that, and I don't want to pay the bridge toll just to buy a $4 valve. Even tools for professionals are hard to come by here.

No sheet.
Even NAPA is shocking for what they charge for their chinsy Eichin check valves.
I order mine in bulk online - delivered to my door.

 

[Heisenberg]

Page 78 of the Manual for checking EGR functionality
Under Engine / Driveabiltiy / Emissions section (I think )

 

[Heisenberg]

One more reason I am looking forward to moving to Florida.
No emissions testing and no state income tax.

 

[turbolou]

If HC / CO readings are normal & fails NOX the EGR system is not working properly. I have posted this before & perhaps a sticky should be made available. To properly test the EGR system jack the rear wheels of the ground start the car put it into gear with one hand on the throttle & the other place a finger under the EGR valve bring the engine up above idle & see if the valve wants to move or check with a vacuum gauge reading at the EGR hose. If not here are the following things to look for. First make sure the chip is a smog version which hasn't had the EGR system blocked. Second use a scan tool that indicates that the P/N safety switch is working & telling the computer that its in drive or the valve will not work. I have run into this quite a bit on cars that have had any steering column work done & it may simply be out of adjustment. ( The switch is located on the lower portion on top of the steering column & a PITA to get gain excess to & by the way also affects cruise control operation ) Third I have also run into bad transducers ( the black box towards the drivers side rear of the intake manifold that the EGR hose are hooked to ) By the way the speedo has to be working also to get a signal from the speed sensor to signal the computer the car is in motion. As for Evap failures in regards to the vacuum test now being used assuming all else is connected properly I have run into sending unit o-ring seals leaking most likely from a fuel pump that had been replaced one upon a time.Another suggestion would be since our cars are quite rare & a smog tech unfamiliar with that may enter in the machine the wrong info such as calling a Regal a Grand National even though the drive lines are similar the standards are different so study that info on on the test results also. I hope this helps & good luck.

 

[kjizzle]

That's pretty much what Ray, our old smog tech, told me. The valve itself tests fine, and I can smoothly actuate it while it's running. I think maybe the check valve or solenoid may be leaking or inoperative. Luckily, I have another GN with a TurboTweak chip that I can steal the parts from.

 

[turbolou]

That's pretty much what Ray, our old smog tech, told me. The valve itself tests fine, and I can smoothly actuate it while it's running. I think maybe the check valve or solenoid may be leaking or inoperative. Luckily, I have another GN with a TurboTweak chip that I can steal the parts from.

If you have checked everything as I have indicated & it still fails NOX then the next area to check are the EGR passages in the intake & heads. If they have been blocked or plugged for any reason all bets are off till that is corrected. There are of course many other reasons for emissions failure. What I have focused on here is the EGR/NOX part of the test.

 

[kjizzle]

I know it's a little late, but I'll check that this weekend. Small update, checked the chip and injectors, they're dead stock, if a little rough looking. I've been fighting a slight BLM issue (it was at about 145-150, but I fixed a couple vac leaks and it dropped to 128/130), and a white exhaust smoke thing going on. It smells hella rich, so this weekend I'm going to check the spark plugs and put better wires on it. I ordered both a TT street and an emissions chip, so hopefully those will help.

I hate that you can't just get an unofficial smog test. I just want my friggin' NO checked BEFORE it goes on record, dammit. Evap is going to be a PITA, but i'll rig up a tester this weekend to pressure test it. I've also got a powerlogger on the way that should be here by then, so I'll be able to log everything. Thanks for all the help, everyone.

EDIT: Also, I just realized that he put it in as a Regal, not a GN. Are the requirements different?

 

[ravege]

When the shop put my VIN up, they got 3 models to select from, Regal, TType (I think) and GN. Even though mine is a T, I explained the Regal is probably just a NA v6 and the GN a turbo v6 and he was ok with selecting GN - apparently the limits are higher, i.e. easier to pass, with GN selected.

The shop I went to has had no problem doing unofficial tests, not sure why yours have a problem.

I have nearly the same problems as you, smells rich but scanner says its lean (142-150). I'll be replacing all my vac lines as well here soon. My NO numbers were crazy low though, in the 200s (I recall ~900 being limit with avg being ~700, something like that). I passed 15mph(barely) but failed 25mph (barely).

Why is evap going to be a pita?

 

[kjizzle]

When the shop put my VIN up, they got 3 models to select from, Regal, TType (I think) and GN. Even though mine is a T, I explained the Regal is probably just a NA v6 and the GN a turbo v6 and he was ok with selecting GN - apparently the limits are higher, i.e. easier to pass, with GN selected.

The shop I went to has had no problem doing unofficial tests, not sure why yours have a problem.

I have nearly the same problems as you, smells rich but scanner says its lean (142-150). I'll be replacing all my vac lines as well here soon. My NO numbers were crazy low though, in the 200s (I recall ~900 being limit with avg being ~700, something like that). I passed 15mph(barely) but failed 25mph (barely).

Why is evap going to be a pita?

I don't want to drop the fuel tank if the sending unit is leaking.

Anyway, mine blew 25MPH out of the water with 280, but 15 MPH was 950. Do you still have your results sheet? I want to know how much higher the limit is.

 

[ravege]

I do, but I'm on travel at the moment, should be back Friday.

I also got crap for the adjustable fpr, but they saw I had a welded cat and were ok with that, as well as with the Scanmaster and the hood mount fp gauge.. Maybe shop around some other smog places and see if they're any less smog-nazis, they are out there you just have to find them.