Finally into the 7’s in the 1/8th

[turbo6x2]

With being a Bosch oxygen sensor it does state in the fine print not for leaded fuel. Even though it does hold up for a time the lead can effect a wide band. The real killer though is the heat they are only rated for 1400 degrees or something close to that, my car doesn't run anything that cool. I usually see about 1625 -1650 on my egt temp, but it's a hot air and that's expected.

 

[Jerryl]

................. well by doing the math to figure the amount of heat should be in the air after it's been compressed is ok to do but there is always one factor there that is really hard to compensate for is the amount of humidty that's in the air. the math is a ball park figure to be close but it's not the correct # IMO.
........

Not sure if you have ever seen or used the spreadsheet from John Estill.
It has been posted on GNTTYPE and a few other sites for quite some time.
That is the one I use, and it is pretty darn close to what my MAT indicates.
I realize that humidity will have an affect, but 5-15% difference in humidity will not be enough for me to worry about. (yes, I have documented humidity and ambient as well for the comparisons. )
So, it is therefore safe (at least for me ) to conclude that the utilization of the laws of physics in the spreadhseet, combined with actual test data and verification of the measurement system, the yard stick is close enough for a hobbyist like me.

(GREAT active and informative thread by the way .......... Been a while to have such good discussions in the HA section! )

 

[Jerryl]

With being a Bosch oxygen sensor it does state in the fine print not for leaded fuel. Even though it does hold up for a time the lead can effect a wide band. The real killer though is the heat they are only rated for 1400 degrees or something close to that, my car doesn't run anything that cool. I usually see about 1625 -1650 on my egt temp, but it's a hot air and that's expected.

Thanks for sharing.
Where are you measuring the EGT at?

My WB sensor is about 12" BEFORE the cat.
Not sure how hot is gets down there, but probably pretty cool compared to the temp at the turbo.

 

[esinger]

Intake Manifold Temps

This morning I checked two logs from that past week and found this information about my Intake Manifold temps. Both were at 1/8th mile runs

Log 1 (10/12/2008)
------
Ambient temperatures were around the low 70's
Perceived humidity was low
Boost was at 22 pounds.
Starting WOT Intake Manifold temps (at launch) 150 degrees
Ending WOT Intake Manifold temps 199 degrees (Note: even after releasing the throttle the temps climbed to around 203 degrees)

Log 2 (10/18/2008)
------
Ambient temperatures were around the high 50's
Perceived humidity was high (Rained the night before)
Boost was at 23 pounds.
Starting WOT Intake Manifold temps (at launch) 141 degrees
Ending WOT Intake Manifold temps 185 degrees (Note: Temps started dropping after releasing the throttle)

 

[turbo6x2]

Jerryl my probe is inserted in the up pipe if you check the engine compartment posts it's the yellow probe. My oxygen sensor is in the down pipe almost across from it.


Eric what are you using to get your data logs, just curious, I'm sure you've said before.

If you are only seeing 200 degrees I would have to say your razor kit is working. I know when Karl spoke with Julio he told him that we actually seen more of a cooling effect when we injected in the air intake tube. It couldn't hurt is all I have to say. I know from dyno numbers on a friends car that's where he gained the most horse power from. That's why I have a nozzle there.

 

[turbo6x2]

From Eric's photo on the engine bay thread we are both using the same location for the wide band in the down pipe, however do you have another one in your up pipe as well? That looks like a Lee Thompson down pipe as well. LOL It looks great to by the way the engine compartment.

 

[esinger]

Eric what are you using to get your data logs, just curious, I'm sure you've said before.

I'm using the Powerlogger from Fullthrottle Speed

If you are only seeing 200 degrees I would have to say your razor kit is working. I know when Karl spoke with Julio he told him that we actually seen more of a cooling effect when we injected in the air intake tube. It couldn't hurt is all I have to say. I know from dyno numbers on a friends car that's where he gained the most horse power from. That's why I have a nozzle there.

There seems to be a larger debate on this. It appears that some people are confident that spraying before the turbo somehow hurts the turbo, while others think it does no harm.

 

[SloGN]

I'm using the Powerlogger from Fullthrottle Speed



There seems to be a larger debate on this. It appears that some people are confident that spraying before the turbo somehow hurts the turbo, while others think it does no harm.

Guys

From what i have seen over the yrs from guys that have been spraying Water/alky mix or straight alky in the inlet of a turbo or centrifgal supercharger that it slowly eats away from the tips of the compressor wheels. This was a problem on higher mileage carbed turbo car from the gas going thru the compressor housing. doing every now and then may not hurt it but after awahile the turbo will need a new wheel installed.

 

[turbo6x2]

Well, believe it or not I saw Julio this weekend and he convinced me to buy a M3 nozzle, T and line to install on my intake pipe (Pre-Turbo). He thought I'd atleast be able get 1 more psi in boost with that setup.

Where was Julio telling you to add this? What are you referring to as the intake pipe? Just trying to verify.

I'll talk to my people and see if anyone that has sprayed before going into the turbo or supercharger are having issues with wheels. First I've read this. Not saying it couldn't happen especially with meth it will eat through applications. Good to know. However where we are spraying would be at the end of the air intake tube by my air breather, which is a long distance before entering the turbo. More of a fine mist by the time it would get there, not a direct shot just before the turbo. Not sure if that makes any difference.

Thanks

 

[Jerryl]

Jerryl my probe is inserted in the up pipe if you check the engine compartment posts it's the yellow probe. My oxygen sensor is in the down pipe almost across from it.
................. I know when Karl spoke with Julio he told him that we actually seen more of a cooling effect when we injected in the air intake tube. .........

Saw that, Thanks!
Looks like that is what the solenoids are for?

Guys

From what i have seen over the yrs from guys that have been spraying Water/alky mix or straight alky in the inlet of a turbo or centrifgal supercharger that it slowly eats away from the tips of the compressor wheels. This was a problem on higher mileage carbed turbo car from the gas going thru the compressor housing. doing every now and then may not hurt it but after awahile the turbo will need a new wheel installed.

Well apparently, it may not make a difference injecting before the turbo ........
Post 21 - I was merely looking to learn something .................
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/al...263859-preturbo-injection-test-run-setup.html

 

[esinger]

Where was Julio telling you to add this? What are you referring to as the intake pipe? Just trying to verify.

I'm mounting it in the L pipe right as the pipe bends before the throttle body.

Sorry I didn't answer your previous question. On the uppipe is the narrow band sensor. I mounted the LC-1 wideband sensor on the downpipe. I know some people go as far as the test pipe, but I figured that exhaust has to travel through a bit more pipes on our cars than a 86/87 and it'd be okay there.

 

[turbo6x2]

We both run our oxygen sensor the same place, narrow band sensor? What does this monitor. What's funny is we all talk as if our engine compartments are the same when we each have something a bit different going on but still really cool to see all the posts and information.

 

[esinger]

Hi Jamie,

The Lee Thompson setup had the stock narrow band O2 sensor bung on the uppipe. According to Eric Marshall I still have to run the stock O2 with his speed density chip. The wideband O2 sensor bung I added earlier this year.

 

[esinger]

A question for you Jamie, it looks like you're running an external wastegate from your pictures. Do you have it just blowing out to the open air or do you have it pumbed back into the exhaust somewhere? My wastegate dumps to the open air and makes a lot of noise when it opens (I was told that I rival the noise from Jack Cotton's car going down the strip).

 

[turbo6x2]

I have my external waste gate going to the open air, I personally like the noise it makes this way, Karl not so much. It's very loud in an enclosed room on the dyno I can tell you that. LOL Karl would rather pipe it back into the exhaust but I won't let him.

 

[esinger]

I have my external waste gate going to the open air, I personally like the noise it makes this way, Karl not so much. It's very loud in an enclosed room on the dyno I can tell you that. LOL Karl would rather pipe it back into the exhaust but I won't let him.

There something to be said about announcing your presence I've ordered a flange for the Racegate and I planning on piping the exhaust to the test pipe and going stealth mode.

 

[turbo6x2]

You'll miss the sound. I actually had someone local say they didn't realize how mean my car sounded until they heard it under boost.

That's exactly what Karl had planned until I vetoed the change.

 

[Eric Stage I]

Hi Jamie,

The Lee Thompson setup had the stock narrow band O2 sensor bung on the uppipe. According to Eric Marshall I still have to run the stock O2 with his speed density chip. The wideband O2 sensor bung I added earlier this year.

Not with the SD chip, no narrowband required. You might be thinking about the 6.0 chip you had, it still needs the stock O2.

Eric

 

[esinger]

Not with the SD chip, no narrowband required. You might be thinking about the 6.0 chip you had, it still needs the stock O2.
Eric

Okay, I thought I read some where that it was still needed. Well there's another sensor I can remove No reason to keep submitting it to exhaust gases if it's not needed.

 

[SloGN]

here is a page that i found online and it has good info in it about water injection


Alcohol Information



Water Injection By Robert Mann

Water injection: 0.40 lb/min of water will vaporize, cooling the air down from 150 F to 109 F.

Methanol:
100%: 1.08 lb/min of methanol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 96 F.
50%: 0.55 lb/min of methanol/water will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 107 F

Ethanol:
100%: 1.26 lb/min of ethanol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 100 F.
50%: 0.57 lb/min of ethanol/water will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 108 F

Isopropyl:
70%: 0.76 lb/min of alcohol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 107 F.
91%: 1.14 lb/min of alcohol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 104 F.
100: 1.50 lb/min of alcohol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150 F to 102 F.

Alcohol is an oxygenated fuel, not an oxygenator like nitrous. Nitrous
absorbs heat as it vaporizes, cooling the intake charge, and also
decomposes to release nitrogen (basically inert) and oxygen gases. This
oxygen can then react with extra fuel and thus release more energy than was
consumed in the decomposition step. Also, the bulk of the nitrous enters
the combustion chamber as a liquid before it vaporizes and decomposes,
which acts like a supercharger - it increases the total oxygen in the
cylinder above what would normally be drawn in.

Alcohol, on the other hand, can be viewed as a partially burnt hydrocarbon.
It does not release free oxygen gas in the combustion chamber, and because
some carbon-oxygen and oxygen-hydrogen bonds have already been formed,
fewer will be formed during combustion and so less energy will be released
(skipping a few chemical details ). That lower energy (heat of
combustion is about half that of gasoline) is why oxygenated fuels give
lower gas mileage - 2 to 4 mpg less on my car. Alcohols do have much
higher heats of vaporization than hydrocarbons which means they will cool
the intake charge better. For comparison, hydrocarbons are about 70-80,
methanol is 262, ethanol is 204, isopropanol is 159, water is 560, and
nitrous oxide about 40, so methanol absorbs about 3.5 times more heat than
gasoline as it vaporizes. Also, the alcohols have high octane ratings,
about 98 (R+M)/2, and wider flammability limits than gasoline which
probably gives more complete combustion. My guess as to why you can go
faster without turning up the boost is that you were slightly too rich
before to suppress detonation (and were probably still getting a little
timing retard). The octane boost and charge cooling let you lean it out
some and keep the timing a little more advanced to make more power and
still be safe.