Fresh 200-4R and low pressure - tried everything!

[Matthew Jones]

Ok guys, I need help! I'm at my last rope with this trans.

It's a fresh 200-4R with a bunch of CK Performance parts (Billet forward drum, master rebuild kit, shift recal kit, big servo. I used his manual as well. The trans is an AA code. Converter is a Hughes 2500 lockup. I followed CK's manual to every last word and the process went smoothly. The 1-2 accumulator is plugged.

Problem:
1500RPM (TV in/TV Out)
P: 50/190
R: 100/150
N: 50/190
OD: 50/160
D: 50/160
2/1: 180/180

To me, the pressure is way low for a .555 boost valve. Something is wrong and I can't figure it out. I'm in touch with Chris, but understandably he is a busy guy. So here's what I've tried to fix it:
1. Replace filter
2. Replace VB/case gaskets
3. Double, triple, quadruple check TV cable adjustment
4. Rebuild valve body, triple check the TV valve is not sticking.
5. Replace pump with new unit from CK
6. Replace valve body with known good core (KC3?) from CK (I put in the shift kit from the old VB)
7. Cleaned spacer plate and removed scale from cut surfaces from laser cutting process
8. Opened TV feed orifice in spacer plate to .063"
9. Verify gauge is working properly
10. Verify hose connected to gauge is not plugged

That's it. I don't know what else to do. If or when I find out the problem, I promise to post the culprit! Please help!

 

[turbo nasty]

fluid level....oring on filter. can you hear the pump load when you go max tv when idling?

 

[Matthew Jones]

Level is full I believe. The HOT mark on the dipstick is a ways up from the pan mating surface. O-ring is intact on the filter and "appears" to be seated fully. I've tried two filters and two pumps at this point. I can hear the pump loading when the cable is pulled, and I can feel the hose leading to the gauge expand as pressure builds. I noticed the pressure build is somewhat slow, but the gauge is liquid filled and that may be why. I tried it on another trans however, and the gauge showed quick pressure increase - but not on this trans. I appreciate your help.

 

[turbo nasty]

with idling in park you should be at the full mark at a min on the dipstick.

 

[Matthew Jones]

with idling in park you should be at the full mark at a min on the dipstick.

I agree, fluid level is OK.

 

[wiseman]

Subscribed.......

I am going thru almost the same issue as you are. I have installed the ck master rebuild kit, billet servo, and recalibration kit in 2004r for a 86 GN. I got in contact with Chris the day before yesterday , and he said that even though my pressures are low at idle ( with tv cable connected) (same as your numbers) I am ok as long as I see a constant increase in pressure when the tv cable is pulled. I am curious to see what fixes your problem b/c i have been working on my issue for a month now, searched the forum hi and low reading and researching how others have fixed there low pressure issues. Please share all of your results.

Here are my numbers that I gave Chris when I was speaking to him.

No TV Cable @ 1500rpm:
P - 240 psi
R - 120 psi
N - 50 psi
D - 50 psi
3 - 50 psi
2 - 150-90 psi (constantly fluctuates back & forth rapidly)
1 - 150-90 psi (constantly fluctuates back & forth rapidly)

TV Cable Connected @ 1500rpm:
P - 50 psi
R - 120 psi
N - 50 psi
D - 50 psi
3 - 50 psi
2 - 170 psi
1 - 170 psi


Full TV @ 1500rpm:
P - 250 psi
R - 180psi
N - 240 psi
D - 210 psi
3 - 210 psi
2 - 170 psi
1 - 160 psi

 

[Matthew Jones]

Wiseman, I've been following your posts as well. Personally, I'd be OK with your numbers, although the manual low pressures do seem minimal.

What bothers me is no matter what change I make, nothing changes the pressures at all and the pressure rise is very slow - it takes a couple seconds to reach max pressure. On my friend's 700R4, the pressure increase was instant when the cable was pulled. Is this normal for a 200-4R?

I hope I can get some help from the Buick guys, but if that doesn't work out, I'm throwing in the towel and sending the trans to CK (although I can't seem to get him to call me back...).

 

[wiseman]

Hi Mathew,
I tried everything I could, I drove the car 3 miles but was scared to drive it any further, so I have it parked and I have been wrenching on it for a month or so now. I will be dropping the valve body once again to change out the line bias spring. I got another spring from ck and want to install it. He updated the kit recently and this new spring is stiff as hell. He said it didn't matter if I used the spring that came in my original kit or this latest spring there shouldn't be a change. But, I will change it anyways just as a piece of mind that I have done everything I could to fix the low pressure numbers. From what I read, you want a stiff spring in the line bias bore that will stop the valve from closing. I read that it should give you the max possible pressure , which normally is about 75psi. The original spring in the kit is about 26in. In diameter and the coils are wound loose. The new one I just got from him is about 3/16in. In diameter and is wound very tight.

From what I read the line pressure "is" supposed to increase as soon as the tv cable is pulled b/c the valve is moving in accordance with the tv cable. Your buddy's 700r4 pressure increases instantly, and mine does increase instantly as the tv cable is pulled also. I also ordered a new tv cable from gbodys just to make sure the problem isn't my cable. (I don't think it is, but.....it can't hurt to spend another 100 bucks, lord knows I have already spent a fortune in TIME and money on this thing)

 

[Matthew Jones]

I got a new gauge (I'm borrowing the one I was using) and hose assembly. The pressure is the same, but thankfully the pressure rises at a faster rate than it was before. The other gauge was lazy. So I didn't solve any problems, but at least I feel like I've made progress.

I talked to Chris at CK yesterday, and he wants to make sure the seperator plate has a TV exhaust hole in it (either maybe it was left out or it is too small, I'm not sure which). I'll post back with the results.

 

[wiseman]

Mathew,
I believe there is a sheet in the instructions that identify the ports in the separation plate. If Chris can tell you what that hole size for that port is supposed to be, you can measure it and maybe cut down on some shipping and down time.

 

[Matthew Jones]

There is, page 111 in his manual. The TV exhaust hole isn't listed on there but I believe I know where it is.

One thing I thought of this morning, his manual recommends the TV exhaust lifter and spring to be removed during reassembly, and I believe the check ball as well. These parts here:

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/threads/before-installing.381923/page-3

IIRC, the lifter just raises the checkball off of the separator plate if the cable is disconnected and increases the line pressure. So it shouldn't help my situation, but I'll put them back in anyway just to check off one more thing on the list.

His manual says to put seven check balls in the case, and his shift recalibration kit says to use 5. I assume the shift recal kit insructions override the manual. I can't remember what the purpose is of the two remaining check balls.

 

[wiseman]

If u post a pic of your seperator plate and point the hole out that u believe is it, I can verify the hole and size on my end. I winded up having to buy 2 kits, b/c some parts were lost or mixed up (during installation (its along ,depressing story). But I can check the extra, never used plate, and I removed my valve body last night to install the spring so, I verify my other plate for you also.
Yes, I followed the instructions exactly, 5 balls total (3 b/w case & Sep. Plate and 2 b/w valve body and plate). I installed the linkage and spring per the instructions also. I would think that the shift kit instructions would supersede the manual instructions, just my guess.

 

[Matthew Jones]

The hole with the black arrow is what I believe is the TV exhaust hole. I'm showing it to be 0.210" in diameter. I can't see opening this up would make any difference, but I'll post back when I talk to Chris (he may be referring to something else).

Now, you said you used 5 checkballs total. My shift recal kit says 8, 5 in the case, 3 in the valvebody. Am I on crack?

 

[wiseman]

Wow, today is the 1st day in 3months that I left my instructions at home (isn't that funny). Going off of my memory here, .......on the page that installs the checkballs b/w the case and plate, they show a total of 5 balls, but the instructions say to only install "the indicated" 3 balls only, there are 3 arrows calling out the locations. Then when its time to put the valve body on (after the Sep. Plate is installed), there are 3 check balls pictured on the page, but it says to delete the center ball is you have a high stall. (Do not delete center ball if a low stall converter is installed, it will cause harsh shifts - this is per the instructions from what I remember.) So, with the 3 and these last 2 , I have 5 balls total.

 

[wiseman]

I will check those holes for you when I get off this afternoon.

 

[Matthew Jones]

I remember that page. I wonder if I did install 5 in the case, and I believe I did. I double checked the manual, and it indeed shows seven...and I remember having two left over after I put the check balls into the case. In my situation I left the 3rd checkball in the valve body because I'm only running a 2500 stall...so I should have 6 check balls total. That wasn't if you were using a manual valve body or trans brake, right?

I wonder if this is my issue. I have being using 5 checkballs in the case from day one, although I don't think the extra ones would cause my problem, but I will definitely put that on the check-list.

 

[wiseman]

I am not sure if that will fix your problem, I thought that from reading the instructions, that the middle checkball may only have an affect during driving. But, in any case it is still worth trying.

 

[Matthew Jones]

Well I spoke with Chris at CK and we went through all the possible options again and confirmed the spacer plate was correct. He said, and I had a feeling this would be the situation, that there is a good chance that if he rebuilds the trans it probably will do the exact same thing. He suspects there is something wrong in the case that is allowing this to happen.

One of his suggestions would be to send my trans up there and he could pull out the known good parts (valvebody, servo, govenor, pump, billet forward drum, etc) and use a new case, and essentially build a new one. At least this way I can get a new one built with the parts I already have now (that are known good parts). It would be a shame because I've spent so much time on this and I am the type of person that is obsessive about finding the solution to a problem.

So, here is the dilemma:
Option 1: Ship trans to CK (figure $300 both ways) and hope I was an idiot and missed something easy that would be obvious to Chris. Figure $300 for shipping, $400 for labor = $700.
Option 2: Ship trans to CK and Chris cannot fix the problem. Build new trans, pay extra for labor to repair old trans, and ship back ($1200+400+300=Ouch)
Option 3: Rip out known good parts of my trans, ship to CK, and have a new one built ($1200 for trans, $150 to ship = $1350).

This sucks.

 

[wiseman]

I checked my plates based on The pics you provided, and they matched yours.

I definitely know exactly what you mean about being obsessive about finding solutions to problems. It sucks that you are in that position. Option 1 seems like the best choice for a budget, but not guaranteed. I don't know exactly what route to take, but if it was me.........I don't know, I guess I would go for option 3. It definitely is more money, but you would have a new transmission with hopefully no issues. That shipping is the killer.

I don't know why the shipping is so much. I would think that distributors / transmission shops would have a FedEx shipping account that gives a huge discount on shipping. I shipped my trans from tx to Louisiana next day shipping 2months ago for $26 through my work that has a FedEx acct.. The discount was unbelievable! I would think that businesses would do the same to cut shipping to customers so we wouldn't always second guess getting a large item shipped due to expensive shipping costs.

Let me know what you decide and how it goes along with your results. I am curious to know what inside of your case is causing your problem, if you go with option 1.

 

[Matthew Jones]

I've decided to get a new trans built. I don't know yet if I will ship him my current trans or just ship the known good parts. I already took out the transmission this morning and I'm ready to get this over with.

We ship very large items at work so I should get a decent deal on shipping.