Frustrated - considering dumping my "engine from he!!"

[S10xGN]

Hi All,

I'm just about at the end of my patience! I've had this thing running since last July, but have had it apart several times since - once for head gaskets (crappy machine work) and 3 front cover jobs for oil leaks (something wrong with the front face on my block). My new GM front cover is now cracked in the same place the 2 previous HV front covers cracked - the second from bottom, DR side bolt hole (top mount for crank sensor bracket). It seems as if there is a "depression" in the block face that the cover is trying to conform to when tightened.

But anyhow, I can (and will) live with the leaks IF ONLY THIS THING WOULD START! The last time I removed the front cover, this is what was done:

• Jason's powerplate
• ATR PCV check valve
• new Delco O2 sensor
• MSD 50#er's and PTE chip
• new IAC motor
• new Autolite #24's (@0.035")
• checked for timing gear alignment, OK)
• new GM front cover (self-machined for Weber roller cam thrust setup - set @ 0.015")
• pulled thrust nose, cam sensor gear, "eccentric spacer", timing gear, & thrust spacer - did Weber's "oiling mods" and re-installled
• checked timing gear alignment (again - OK)
• new Optima red top battery

Could my plugs be gapped too much?
Will it start with a bad or no MAF?
It spins over normal for 3 -4 spins, then cranks like it has 15:1 compression! If I disconnect the crank sensor, it continues to spin over normally.
After the 4th spin or so (whenever cranking slows and becomes erratic), the gauges all go nuts.
T-Link shows VERY low voltage on it's "battery" gauge when this happens (even though no wiring changes have been made).

<edit> forgot to add:
Last time this thing actually ran, there was some muted "popping" noises from the exhaust with engine speed changes (kinda like small back-firing?)
The motor has always needed 6-8 spins to start - it would never fire on the 2nd revolution like it should...
<edit>

I plan to remove the injectors and check each of them individually, regap the plugs @ 0.030", recheck all power and ground connections, run the C3I diagnostic procedure...

Am I overlooking something simple???? I've made fairly standard changes, nothing at all to the wiring, but it refuses to start!

HELP!

 

[blackbuick87]

You need to start simple.
Do you have fuel?
Do you have spark?
For the plug gap to not let the car start they would have to be WAY out of whack. Set them about .032

I dont see how the crank sensor could effect the way motor turns over. Are you sure you didnt f@#k something up internally? Does it make any knocking, pinging, clicking, banging, or rubbing noises when it turns?

 

[John Larkin]

How does it spin over with the plugs out? Just wondering since it sounds like advanced timing, which would indicate firing the cylinder early and creating excessive cylinder pressure, hence the starter drag. This could also be related to why it now doesn't run: out of time. Probably the last thing you want to hear. Maybe the coil pack is hooked up wrong, maybe? Since the coil pack fires the paired cylinders at the same time, it could be "falsely" running?

 

[idaho gn]

dude let me give you some advise


your cam sensor is toast


i went throug 3 of them the car would back fire and try to start and crank like it was out of time if you remove the 2 screws that hold on the black piece i would bet that the metal bottle top looking thing(trigger) is not attached to the oil pump drive shaft piece or the key finger is busted off and it is just spinning(not in time)


this is just my opinion (i spent 2 days chasing it the first time and 10 seconds the last two times)

i hope this helps

shawn



ps i put the last two in (just replaced the bottle cap in the car)

 

[KendallF]

Originally posted by idaho gn
dude let me give you some advise


your crank sensor is toast

shawn

Cam sensor, do you mean? Russ, you haven't mentioned your setting procedure for the cam sensor. It does sound like it's cam sensor/timing related. If the cam sensor's off or dead, the car will crank as you're describing. The cam sensor setting procedure can be found at www.gnttype.org in the tech section.

Good luck!

 

[Kid with a toy]

Oh sh!t...

I know you're gonna hate to hear this, but you might have to put in a 3 hour phone call to Chris. But, I would first try Mr. Webb. Joel doesn't have the Buick back ground that Chris does, but he IS sharp. I know you're working nights, so if you need some MF'n help, now is the time...before the summer ends. Oh wait, this is Southeast Texas, we'll have summer up to Thanksgiving.

For my .002 worth:
I'm not buying the excessive cylinder pressure. It was never a problem before...but a lot has been taken off, and put back on since the birth of the beast.

But I would take a look at the cam sensor. How many times has that thing been off the car? It's the little stuff, the unexpected, that grabs the nads.

I'm here for ya man. We need to get this thing running by the 11th St Drag...this Saturday!!!

Off to drop my tranny, for the second time this year.

Erik

 

[idaho gn]

thats what i said

need i edit more

 

[Nashty]

Crank triggers either work or they don't.

The MAF will usually cause a stumble after idle when vibrations are increasing.

Sounds like it could be a cam sensor type problem. Are you sure everything is ok under the front cover? You sure the cam is degreed in ok? (I mean like really off).

The gauges and starting lead me to believe it's a general voltage related problem. Test voltage at the starter when it's cranking. Check the alternator wire to be sure you didn't get it pinched (and shorted) on something.

Have you tried a different chip for the heck of it? They're not stuck are they?

Could very well be a coil module. Mine tested fine on the Casper's doo-dad but was dead as a door nail on #6 only. Not 2 cylinders but only one.

I'll trade you for my '42 Ford. Mouse crap is keeping the wiring continuity together. BTW, the 6 volt starter doesn't seem to like 14 volts.

 

[Kid with a toy]

If we need to, we can use my car (your car ) for a control again.

Keep your head up, and your a$$ down. We're almost there.

Wait, didn't I say that right before I blew the bearing out of the TC? Never mind...piss on my wisdom.

Erik

 

[S10xGN]

Here's some more info:

Cam sensor set 25° ATDC on firing stroke (yes, I'm sure on this)
Reluctor wheel is firmly attached
Cap has a small crack (new addition) that I epoxied from inside - still shows good volt readings while setting it

Today we:
Pulled & cleaned plugs (fuel fouled), ohmed all plug wires (3.5k - 4.1k)
Ran compression check - all cyl's 120# - 160# (rings prolly not seated yet)
Pulled all the injectors and tested each one individually, all OK (the MSD's have an awesome spray pattern!)
Checked all power and ground leads
Checked all connectors for bent/broken pins - all OK
Ohmed the coil packs - all were 11.1k - 11.5k

Re-assembled everything, went to try it and it actually cranked over normally - whoops! - forgot to connect the coil pack connector. Now it spins over 3 - 4 times normally and then cranks real whacky like it did before Seems like whenever the ignition system comes into play, the thing cranks like dog doo.

I'll try the C3I procedures tomorrow, but could not find an injector test light ('noid) for the GM injectors. Will prolly spend a few hours trying to make one. Could the cracked cam sensor cap be doing this?

 

[Kansas T]

Originally posted by S10xGN

and 3 front cover jobs for oil leaks (something wrong with the front face on my block). My new GM front cover is now cracked in the same place the 2 previous HV front covers cracked - the second from bottom, DR side bolt hole (top mount for crank sensor bracket). It seems as if there is a "depression" in the block face that the cover is trying to conform to when tightened.

I bet you installed the fuel pump block off plate backwards and its causing the cover to break when you torque it down. The fuel pump block off plate isnt the same on both sides. The side with the larger tab faces away from the block. I've seen several people break covers when they install the plate wrong. I'd recommend you install the timing chain cover before you install the fuel pump block off plate.

 

[S10xGN]

Re: Re: Frustrated - considering dumping my "engine from he!!"

Originally posted by Kansas T


I bet you installed the fuel pump block off plate backwards and its causing the cover to break when you torque it down. The fuel pump block off plate isnt the same on both sides. The side with the larger tab faces away from the block. I've seen several people break covers when they install the plate wrong. I'd recommend you install the timing chain cover before you install the fuel pump block off plate.

If only it were that simple... I ALWAYS install the fp plate after the cover is on and torqued.

I could use a few pointers on the electrical end here - - - - -

It seems like the motor spins over normally while the EST is bypassed (below 400 rpm's), but whenever the EST kicks in, the cranking goes screwy. This has got to ring a bell or two with some of you electrical geniuses!

Still looking for help...

 

[KendallF]

Russ,

I think I'd play parts swapper next...cam sensor, module and coil pack. That's the fastest and easiest thing if you have someone close enough to borrow parts from. I keep a couple of Type II coil pack/modules around for just such occurences. If that doesn't work then you can chase wiring issues..what fun.

 

[Nashty]

Do you have a spare spark control module you can swap? They're located (normally) on the passenger side fender they are about 1.5" X 1.5" and only about .5" thick. They have a flat 4 pin weatherpack connector.

Hybrids like your's make me jealous of my old Toyota with a turbo Buick in it.

 

[S10xGN]

Originally posted by KendallF
Russ,

I think I'd play parts swapper next...cam sensor, module and coil pack. That's the fastest and easiest thing if you have someone close enough to borrow parts from. I keep a couple of Type II coil pack/modules around for just such occurences. If that doesn't work then you can chase wiring issues..what fun.

<lol> I just ordered new cam and crank sensors, plus a coilpack/module from John DiCarlo today, so parts swapping will begin soon enough. It's a sad day when none of the local parts houses carry any injector test noids...

As for the ESC module, I have 3 but I believe the car should start and run without one - shouldn't it?

Thanks!

 

[Steve Wood]

I bought one off the Help rack at AutoZone here....also saw them at Pep Boys

 

[Chuck Leeper]

ESC operation, et al.

In the FWIW dept.. The General's shop manual says:
A3-29 A defective MAF may cause a not start or a stall after start.
The test: unhook it and crank the engine...ECM will use a default and allow a start.
IS the crank sensor in the RIGHT slot??

The manual also says, on pge C4B-14 that the CAM sensor times Both the spark and sequential FI timing by picking up a signal @ 25*ATDC. The crank sensor, having 3 slots, fires the coil paks in their proper sequence, starting w/ the 3/6 coil.
Therefore, If the cam sensor is FUBAR, nothing will occur, as no fire and no injection. IF the cam sensor is OK, but out of adj, then the injection AND the spark are out of position. Engine turns over OK as long as crank sensor is unplugged [No spark sequence]. Therefore, when the crank sensor is plugged in and the cam sensor is out of adj, we get what Kendall said, timing is wrong.
This will also cause the tailpipe "pooties".

Now, if the cam sensor is in 180* off, we have "batch fire" injection and alot more fuel to light off.
Did you check to see that the cam sensor is turning??


You do have oil PSI when cranking?? [Cam sensor roll pin in the gear sheared?]
Being as this is a odd fire nose on the cam, you did put the key in it?? Remember the posts about the key shearing off due to lack of preload on the stackup??

BUT! all things considered, I think that the key is the drag on the starter after some fuel has had time to get injected, as in 3-4 revs, that the ign timing is fubar and causing the starter to draw astronomical amps and thus the slow crank, the low system volts, thus the fubar gauge readings...

Eliminate the EST. Just unplug it and it will set a code, but the engine will start anyhow. All it does is drop the voltage signal to the ECM when the knok sensor goes on, triggering a timing retard and after 4 sec, sets a code 43.

LASTLY and I'll get back under my rock, I promise.
I have ZERO faith in those "trik, overpriced Optima batteries.. My local guy gets them back 1 after another!! LOW voltage is a BITCH.. had a low voltage wife once!!

 

[Steve Wood]

I forgot about the battery...I concur on the Optimas...

 

[TurboJim]

Originally posted by S10xGN

It spins over normal for 3 -4 spins, then cranks like it has 15:1 compression! If I disconnect the crank sensor, it continues to spin over normally.
After the 4th spin or so (whenever cranking slows and becomes erratic), the gauges all go nuts.

Sounds like cam sensor is outa time

 

[ThikStik]

never say never

My wifes 87 Calais which has the Buick built 3.0 had the exact symptoms except it would start sometimes. When it ran it would run smooth and then through itself into fits even pinging at idle. (probably only pinging 2 cylinders at a time). A timing light verified varying timing. After the GM dealer got stumped and no code ever generated it seemed hopeless.
My thoughts and 3 master mechanics said the crank senser works or doesnt and always gives a code.
Wala, in desperation I pulled it . A rock had displaced one of the magnets making it intermittant.
It looks exactly like the GN unit. I know they can be damaged and still reluct or cut a magnetic field enough to run motor.
Good luck