FTS 210/215 Roller Cam Wear with the 1:65 roller rockers

[Chuck Leeper]

Hi Chuck,
That link shows me retainers, which go on top of the springs. The heads are Champion iron, and they don't have resest faces for the springs, as seen by the 1.70 approx install height.

http://www.compcams.com/Products/CC-'Valve Spring Accessories'-0.aspx
Clik on the locator tab.
I've never used beehives that didn't need a locator. The old style locator was locating on the OD of the spring. The newer design is from the ID of the spring. In either case, the locators are .060 thick

 

[TurboTdr3.8]

Chuck you remember my problem with my car at RC 2013, not enough valve clearance at the guide and retainer and spring tension for my big cam with the beehive springs. The new springs I wanted to run and get the 145lbs at the seat at 1.70 was in coil bind , so I went with a smaller cam and bingo it is happy as hell now .

 

[wantattype2]

PM sent

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

Post picture of the lobes. If you had the spring coil bind, you would bend push rods. What you are describing can be caused by the roller sliding/bouncing because of weak spring pressure over time. The 1218 pacs are too weak for your setup. Coil bind on that spring is 1.096 and I have measured them at 1.080. With Bee hives you can be at .040 from coil bind. You have plenty from coil bind if your installed height is 1.700 +-.010. The k750 will need to be installed at 1.650 at the min. You want to install these springs.060 from coil bind. When using k750 springs, I machine the head and install spring cups and use -.050 locks to achieve correct installed height. I also install light weight steel retainers. See picture. Champion uses a .060 shim instead. .550" lift is very common, the valve train just needs to be set up correctly.
View attachment 255995

Thanks for the information David ! I see on the board there are some with the same combo as I have, so good to know it can be done right. If I wasn't a do it your-selfer, these would be shipped up to your address. But at this point, I want to make it right and if I get in over my head, I may just send them up.

Chuck

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

Chuck you remember my problem with my car at RC 2013, not enough valve clearance at the guide and retainer and spring tension for my big cam with the beehive springs. The new springs I wanted to run and get the 145lbs at the seat at 1.70 was in coil bind , so I went with a smaller cam and bingo it is happy as hell now .

I remember Kim, you stuck with it until the problem was fixed, nice!

 

[David Husek]

Thanks for the information David ! I see on the board there are some with the same combo as I have, so good to know it can be done right. If I wasn't a do it your-selfer, these would be shipped up to your address. But at this point, I want to make it right and if I get in over my head, I may just send them up.

Chuck

Not a problem. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

Update, link to pictures of the cam. https://plus.google.com/photos/118145905359002473467/albums/6160915795333689153

 

[TurboTdr3.8]

They is a lot of of wear on cam that for sure , good call for a new one would be advisable after seeing those journals . GLWBuild .

 

[bison]

Doesn't look like much to me and if it bothers you it can easily be re-ground. . What was the indicated wear? Looks like a polish mark.


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[JDSfastGN]

Yeah I'm not seeing an issue with the cam unless there is something that the pictures don't show. There is no cupping at the lobe where the roller rides.

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

I picked up the heads from the machine shop and I checked all the heights with the gauge. Everything is bagged and tagged for identification and placement to avoid any swapped components from hole to hole. Ok it collapsed the table below, but you can still see that #3 has the shortest spring length with the valves closed.
Cylinder Intake Exhaust
1) 1.739 1.733
2) 1.774 1.785
3) 1.726* 1.730*
4) 1.765 1.781
5) 1.746 1.754
6) 1.764 1.755

Ok so going off of the cam card that Paul provided, (.334 x 1.65 = .551) 1.726 - .551 = 1.175 minimum spring height with the valves open. 1.175 - 1.100 (spring bind) = .075 clearance (.060 min needed)
This tells me that the springs were not binding, but not real happy with them being all over the place in height. The car ran great before the crank broke, the cam showed wear. The question now becomes is cam wear normal? And if so should you be able to see small steps from the rollers on the cam.
Perhabs this is making a mountain out of a mole hill? And I should just put in a fresh cam and rollers and run it.

Chuck

 

[Pronto]

If you concerned about the wear, send it to Bison and let him inspect it.

 

[ijames]

Well, the worst looking lobes don't match up with the shortest springs (cyl 1 and 3) so the extra force doesn't seem to be an issue, for what that is worth. At the rpms our motors see it isn't as important, but over on speedtalk they make a big deal about keeping close to the minimum spec on coil bind. Looser seems to just lead to oscillations and spring breakage and other issues, but that's on 7000+ rpm motors with big springs.

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

Well, the worst looking lobes don't match up with the shortest springs (cyl 1 and 3) so the extra force doesn't seem to be an issue, for what that is worth. At the rpms our motors see it isn't as important, but over on speedtalk they make a big deal about keeping close to the minimum spec on coil bind. Looser seems to just lead to oscillations and spring breakage and other issues, but that's on 7000+ rpm motors with big springs.

Hi Carl,

Several guys on here mentioned about keeping the spring lengths close to .060 from coil bind. I do have shims to install when all the parts get here so I can get on with the build. Machine shop promised this Friday, and I took vacation time next week to get at it. I ended up buying a new 210/215 roller cam from FTS and new lifters. The springs tested good at 1.700, so I'm ready...

Big thanks going out to Dale, for shipping his beehive valve height gauge in for me to use. I bought a regular one that does not work with the beehive springs. I would had to make a washer or spacer, which would have been a pain in the rear.

Chuck

 

[David Husek]

The springs tested good at 1.700, so I'm ready...

The seat pressure at 1.700 is about 155-160#. That is fine. I would be more concerned with the open pressure with the pac 1218. They are weak. Beehives can be run at .040" from coil bind.