fwd roller and non roller cam parts in gn motor w/pictures

[Blazer406]

Can you use the Buick 3800 V-6 spider to hold the dog bones in place?

Why can't you use the FWD 3800 v-6 roller lifters and dog bones?

Was this in another post?
Walt

I think the late 3800 FWD spider has a big hump in the middle for a counter balance shaft.... at least that is what I think the hump was for.... I tried one... it wouldn't fit....

The lifters out of a 90 deg V6 or V8 are longer than the 60 deg V6 lifters... and when you drop them in.... then put the dogbones on them.... and roll the engine over.... the lifter body comes up too high... and the shoulder on the lifter body hits the dogbone... and attempts to pick the dogbone up.

The 3800 is a 90 deg V6... so it has the taller lifters... I can only assume... that these factory roller blocks have taller lifter bores and/or smaller base circle on the cam.... IMHO, it is more likely the lifter bores are taller....hence why our old 109's require the short lifter that the 60 deg V6's use....

HTH

 

[87buickracer]

87Buickracer if you get with me and send me the measurments of that stand off i can make you two of them out of stainless steel or a harden steel that way you don't have to have the stud and the spacer floating. Im a U.S Navy 1st class Machinist with over 18yrs of experiance. my cell is 262-506-8190 ask for Steve

Iwill give you a call.

 

[87buickracer]

I am currently using a set of low mile gm lifters that was disassembled and cleaned.I found a killer deal on a set of comp roller lifters,so I may just go that route.not sure yet,but since I started this thread,I'm not going to change lifters,but will probably get comp lifters for back up motor.

some time ago i wrote about this same applacation in the pit bull section
in this use. when using 3800 rollers they fall deeper into the keepers than they should. when you look at the pic you will see that the lifter is not flush with the retainer on the heel of the cam.
if you use the 3800 lifter guide plates they do need to be clearanced to clear the block inner wall. if you go to a different motor, they are already cut to clear. ( a 3.8 or 4.1), also using the 3800 lifter it has a hole that comes out from the valve lifter body in the wrong location, casing a large leak at medium lift, and cause a problem, that you will see when you pull the end oil plugs. there are roller gm lifters that cure that problem also.

WHY did

I changed it for the better. when going to a ford lifter. I centerless ground down the the lifter quite a lot, then left .003 or what ever i needed and reamed the lifter guide, then stoned bored the lifter guide to my final size. Why go over size?? the lifters are made to run at .0005 to .0008 in clearance. new lifters will not repair a tapered and barreld guide. yes you could install bushings but why. And the best thing about a ford lifter is a larger roller wheel. more action sooner and also latter. cost it good also. to hold the plate in place outher than a few bults on a high lift cam a simple rev kit does very well. If there are any questions you mat e-mail me ay extremeperformanceproducts@yahoo.com

 

[Skids]

First of all thanks to 87BuickRacer for getting this thing going you saved me a tankful of gas for my boat!.........for all you serious engine builders out there here's the goods........ some photos and measurements.

The lifters out of a 1995 Chev Lumina 3.1L V-6 measure .842" wide and 2.228" high. The stock lifters are .842" wide by 2.005" high. When used with a Comp Cams 258HR (ductile iron) specs. 206/206 .498 lift, 110 LSA ......there is lots of ramp-up clearance (where the roller touches the cam,) lots of shoulder clearance top at max lift (.160" to be exact....... so the shoulder doesn't hit the dog-bones) and bottom or base circle ( .115" above flush deck....for the dog-bone retainers to stay in place) Use the retainer and bones out of a 1986 Vin "3" 3.8 roller block as shown in the photo's above (personally I would shorten the length of the spacer a little to put a little more pressure on the dog bones, but only about .200" inch less than the 1.00" suggested, you don't want too much pressure on them either)...........the only thing left to get are pushrods.

I stuck with the Comp Cams 258HR ($250ish) because it has good drivability, generally kicks a$$, works with the stock replacement timing chain, works with the cam sensor, will work with 980 valve springs (no beehive springs needed) and stock valves.........it's a no-brainer. The lifters were 50 cents each from an auto wrecker (either clean them yourself or have someone who knows what they're doing do it........AND make sure the springs inside aren't broken), the special (and required) cam button is $47 from Comp. The only thing left to buy are the proper length push-rods, which I will measure with a push-rod guage, and post the length.

This is a great idea because you don't have the noisy and extremely annoying "clackity-clack" of the Comp-Cams lifters with their retainer bars.........PLUS with everything........including the custom length pushrods (if needed) will be LESS than $400.......you do the math.:biggrin: :biggrin: :smile:

 

[TurboBob]

the only pic we don't have is the oil feed hole relative to the oil galley at min and max lift.

 

[TurboBob]

anyone weigh the lifters yet?

 

[Skids]

the only pic we don't have is the oil feed hole relative to the oil galley at min and max lift.

Good point, so I checked.........the oil feed hole will ride exactly .050" higher than the stocker......assuming that the base circle for both the stock, and Comp cams are the same. That's something that needs to be verified for sure.....anyone????? My stocker in stuck in a snow-drift somewhere. Thanks for the tip. I have a good feeling this is going to work though!

 

[Skids]

O.K.......consider it checked.......and you can quote me. The top of the oil feed hole in the block is .850" down from zero deck (top of lifter bore).......assuming a similar base circle on both cams, the oil feed area on the lifter (the tapered feed area) never rises above the top of the oil feed hole on the block.

If the base circle is slightly smaller on the Comp cam, than the stocker, then that's better........but if the base circle on roller is larger.........then "Houston, we may have a problem."

P.S. The base circle on the Comp Cam is 1.123"..........anyone know what the base circle is on the stock cam????????????

 

[Blazer406]

In all the cases I have ever seen.... rollers cams have smaller base circles than stock cams....I don't have anything to contradict that....

 

[hrhoward]

I am watching this with great interest!!! This is something I would really like to include in my next build.

 

[Skids]

As long as the base circle of the aftermarket cam used is equal to, or slightly smaller than the stock cam........it looks like these lifters will work very well. See the attached pictures.......

Both pics show where the lifters would sit riding on the same base circle cam. <The lifters were not moved in the second photo> If you look at the tapered feed area of both the stock lifter and the roller, you'll see that the area that sees oil pressure is larger on the roller.......which is good. The potential problem with oil feed cut off is at max lift, because the top of the supply hole could go below the bottom of the tapered feed area (I'm using a Comp Cams 206/206 .498)...........because of the larger feed area on the roller, and the smaller base circle of the aftermarket cam.......this is not a problem at all with this cam.........it may be with a much higher lift cam than the CC258HR....but then you're likely going with a kit with the behive springs, lifters, ect, anyway. I honestly don't see a problem with a higher lift cam either way..........the oil pressure would only cut off for a relatively short duration at max lift.....the lifter would see oil pressure most of the time.......it would be absolutely impossible for them to bleed down that fast. Can an expert builder chime in and clarify this???? Anyway, it looks like they're going to work very well with my cam. Cheers.:smile:

P.S. The rollers are NOT noticably heavier than the stockers.

 

[joe_schindler]

The problem is; the base circle is smaller on the roller (usually) and the lifter will sit lower in the bore. It won't be like in the picture; the roller lifter will be slightly lower relative to the flat lifter. If the top of the lifter drops below the top of the oil feed in the block; you rupture the system and bleed the system. This is why the Crane and Comp Cams lifter sets are so goofy for the Buick V6.

 

[Jeasen]

stock cam

According to my inexpensive calipers the base circle diameter of a stock or stock replacement camshaft is 1.234. I hope this helps.
Jeasen

 

[Walt03]

What about other V-6 60* roller lifters

Will the oil hole, lifter indentaation and lifter travel be DIFFERENT on other V-6 60* roller lifters? These are from the 3.1 so I'm wondering if the same layout configuration will be the same or different on 2.8, etc.

Walt

 

[Blazer406]

Will the oil hole, lifter indentaation and lifter travel be DIFFERENT on other V-6 60* roller lifters? These are from the 3.1 so I'm wondering if the same layout configuration will be the same or different on 2.8, etc.

Walt

As best I can tell.... the 60 deg v6 lifters are all the same.... 2.8... 3.1.... 3.4. When I look online at one of the parts houses (like advance auto parts) websites.... and look at the different years... and different displacements of the 60 deg v6's that got hyd roller lifters.... they all are the same part number....

Maybe the newest motors (2000's vintage) might possibly be different?

 

[Skids]

The problem is; the base circle is smaller on the roller (usually) and the lifter will sit lower in the bore. It won't be like in the picture; the roller lifter will be slightly lower relative to the flat lifter. If the top of the lifter drops below the top of the oil feed in the block; you rupture the system and bleed the system. This is why the Crane and Comp Cams lifter sets are so goofy for the Buick V6.

This is absolutely not a problem with these lifters. There is no possibility of the lifter dropping below the oil feed hole in the 109 block with the Comp Cam 258HR. In fact it's not even close. Take one of these lifters, put it in the block, and look at the location of the feed hole in relation to the lifter.........and you will see exactly what I mean. Cheers.

P.S. In fact, after reviewing the specifications to the 1000th of an inch and carefully reviewing the exact location of both top and botton of the oil feed hole in relation to the tapered feed area of the lifter with the Comp Cam I am using, I'm confident these lifters will work very well, and I'm now moving on to the topic of push-rod length.

 

[shaggy]

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[power6usa]

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[trading t/a]

me too

 

[FJM568]

I stuck with the Comp Cams 258HR ($250ish) because it has good drivability, generally kicks a$$, works with the stock replacement timing chain, works with the cam sensor, will work with 980 valve springs (no beehive springs needed) and stock valves.........it's a no-brainer. The lifters were 50 cents each from an auto wrecker (either clean them yourself or have someone who knows what they're doing do it........AND make sure th

Are you sure you can use the 980 valve springs with a roller cam??? I thought that you had to use a WAY stiffer valve spring with roller cams...

And for curiousity sake, where did you get the Comp Cam 258HR came at??? Do most of the GN/TR vendors carry it???