General Knowledge

[Blwn87]

I listen to music in any car what most people would say is overly loud. I am about to purchase my first new car and am going to save on the side, money for a complete audio system. Just about every second of audio played in the car is rock/heavy metal, so i dont need subs that are going to set off car alarms. Absolutely fell in love with component speakers after putting some in the GN, so component speakers are a must have. I am looking for quality, not quantity. I want a sub that is going to be able to hit EVERY double bass drum hit and make it feel like its kicking you in the back. Component speakers that can take high volume without losing quality when the volume dial is WFO. Here is a loose list of components on my wish list. Feel free to tell me i am absolutely crazy. This system is not to be used as a p!ssing contest with anyone and everyone that happens to hear it, but more for a buy it once self-gratification.

Head Unit - Eclipse AVN7000
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-fWas7ac57jL/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=182350&I=099AVN7000
Component Speakers - Focal 165K3P Component Speakers (2 pair)
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=1163
Subwoofers - Eclipse SW9102 10" Sub (2)
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=2002
Component Amp - Eclipse PA5532 5 Channel 960 Watt Amp
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=216
Sub Amp - Eclipse DA7232 2 Channel 4000 Watt Amp
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=211

My questions are... The focal component speakers have a 400W max power, does the component amp even though its a 5 channel be used as a 2 channel with 480 watts per channel (enough to reach max power in component speakers)? Are two eclipse subwoofers going to be too much bass for what i want them for? Anyone have experience with the ergonomics of the Eclipse head unit? Can my money be spent more wisely with another brand? Rough estimate for installation costs (i know if i am spending this much on a system, asking for installation costs is the least of my problems)?

 

[zeus87gn]

Hello Blw87n. I am no expert, but I will be glad to offer my opinion.

Just about every second of audio played in the car is rock/heavy metal, so i dont need subs that are going to set off car alarms. I want a sub that is going to be able to hit EVERY double bass drum hit and make it feel like its kicking you in the back.

YEA - HEAVY METAL! I have one word for you - Punch. Never heard anything like them before.

Feel free to tell me i am absolutely crazy.

Personally, I think you have completely lost your mind. I would think you could easily make yourself deaf for a lot less money.

The focal component speakers have a 400W max power, does the component amp even though its a 5 channel be used as a 2 channel with 480 watts per channel (enough to reach max power in component speakers)?

Regardless of how you set up your amps and speakers, you need to keep in mind what the RMS power and peak power for your system is. Keep your RMS power of the amp about 1/3 less than that of the speaker. This keeps your clarity/quality good at higher volumes. It also makes sure your speaker can deliver everything the amp can put out. Don't know if there is a standard about this, but I have had good luck with this philosophy.

Are two eclipse subwoofers going to be too much bass for what i want them for?

I would think so. You don't want to rumble the car apart, you want the bass drum to hit you in the chest like a fist! I have always wanted to try (4) Punch 8's to get that sound. Haven't done it yet, and may not (scared of it being stolen). I have ran (2) 8's and came close. Didn't have to money to do it all.

Anyone have experience with the ergonomics of the Eclipse head unit? Can my money be spent more wisely with another brand?

Never even heard of them before. But I think you could do just as good for less $$. In my opinion, GPS's are for those who can't read maps.

Rough estimate for installation costs (i know if i am spending this much on a system, asking for installation costs is the least of my problems)?

You got it.

 

[6APPEAL]

Blwn87,
Speakers first. The Focal componets are a fantastic choice, but why 2 sets? Great sound, very realistic, not sure about WFO lifespan but they have great customer service. For better control over the sound and power distributed to the componets you might want to consider a 4 or 6 channel amp. I use a 4 channel in my setup. A pair of channels on the 6 1/2" midbass and a pair of channels on a 5 1/4" componet set (Image Dyanmics). I think a better sub choice would be a JL Audio 10W6V2 or two. The sub you picked out is more of a SPL woofer. The JL is rated extremely high and is the best sounding sub I've heard in a long time. A pair of 10's may be too much for you, but I think 1 10 will not be enough. You might want to try one JL Audio 12W6V2 in a ported enclosure tuned around 32 - 34 Hz with around 500 or 600 watts of CLEAN power. You didn't say what car, so I can't recommend a box.

Amps second. I'm not too impressed with the Eclipse amps. Manafactured in Asia and use their own physics to get power ratings (not realistic for the componets used in the amps). I've help a buddy who owns a electronics repair shop and we agree that the class D stuff is cr@#. Are you looking only at the max power rating you can get? For the amps I would recomend either a Kicker or Rockford (based on the site you put links up to). I have a buddy that works for Kicker doing amp design. Some of the new stuff coming out is going to be kick@zz. I use Linear Power (not made anymore and my buddy at Kicker used to do amp design for Linear).

Head unit. I have no experience with the Eclipse unit you put a link to, but I have used some of their head units in the past. Worked well and sounded great. The Kenwood unit is sweet. Helped a buddy put one in his SUV. The Alpine units are nice also.

Installation cost. What car? What kind of materials do you want to use? Carpet, vinyl, leather, suede, painted fiberglass, carbon fiber? Show car look, basic install or somewhere in between? All of these choices make a big impact on installation cost. I normally charge around $200 for a basic sealed, uncovered, MDF box. I've charged as much as $3000 for a painted, hand laid fiberglass box. Got a kid now that wants an all carbon fiber box for a pair of 15's in his Tahoe. I might have to charge him around $5K, just to be able to cover all the cost for the carbon fiber and resin. I've never worked with carbon fiber either, so I might mess up a time or two before I get it right. So you can see that the install can cost you much more than the componets that make up the system. HTH
John

 

[Blwn87]

I have a 2 piece component set in the front of the GN. Sound is great in the front, but the 6x9s cant keep up at all in the back, hence i would like to have component speakers. The america philosophy is more is better, so 3 speakers dedicated to their own area compared to two trying to cover a lot of area is better, right? 2 sets, i guess because i want an even balance between the front and the back.
Car is 2006 Scion xB. Going to be custom sub box but plywood would probably satisfy my quality standards as far as material used for a sub box and looks. This is not to be a show car or competition car, but a drive the hell out of it while listening to metal pretty darn loud.

If you wanted a very clear system, with a lot of punch, what would your recommendations be? For sake of stopping lunacy put a 6k cap on it

 

[6APPEAL]

The reason I asked about 2 sets is that the way I set up systems is so they sound like a concert hall. Think about it, when you go to a concert you don't face the rear of the concert hall, you face the stage and all the sound comes at you from the front. The only thing you hear from the rear is sound reflections off the rear of the concert hall. That is the reason I only have subs and midbass drivers in the rear of my systems, no mids or tweeters. The sound stage is front and center like the band is playing out on the hood.

Hummmmm, system for $6k for a Scion xB.
1. Lots of Dynamat Extreme
2. Pick your head unit - I don't need nav stuff
3. Front componet set mounted in kick panels
Boston Acoustics Z5
or
Image Dynamics CXS5
or
Focal Car Audio 130KP - Focal 5.2" PolyKevlar Power Components
or
Dynaudio System 220mkII - Dynaudio 5.75" 2-Way Component
4. Midbass drivers - 1 pair front, 1 pair rear
Boston Acoustics 6.5" Z Series
or
Image Dynamics CX64
or
JL Audio 6W0 - JL Audio 6.5" SVC Subwoofer
or
Dynaudio MW170 - Dynaudio 170mm Midrange/Midbass Speaker
5. Sub - 1 10" ported (small car, hatchback, rear facing box, MDF)
Image Dynamics ID MAX 10 v.3
or
JL Audio 10W6V2
6. Front amp
Kicker KX650.4
or
Kicker KX850.4
or
JL Audio 450/4
7. Rear amp
Kicker KX250.2
or
Kicker KX350.2
or
JL Audio 300/2
8. Sub amp
Kicker SX1250.1
or
Kicker KX450.2
or
JL Audio 500/1

This sould provide a good cross between sound quality and volume. You could step up to 6" componets instead of 5 1/4" componets. 1 ported 10, rear facing in a Scion xB would hammer. HTH
John

 

[Blwn87]

6APPEAL Lets see if i am picking up what your putting down. What you are saying is buy a 2 piece component set for the front doors and purchase a seperate pair of midbass speakers also for the front doors. Then purchase a pair of midbass speakers for the back (take out stock speakers?), which will be the only speakers in the rear besides 1 10" ported sub.
Lots of Dynamat Extreme means pretty much taking out all interior panels, covering every metal surface with mats so that the inside of the car is sealed tighter than a nun. Recommended material for sub box? Placement of amps (under seats, enclosed box)? really dont want amps and wires just scattered throughout the trunk space. Couldn't find the kenwood head unit you were talking about. I am pretty much like a baby in a strip club when it comes to car audio, i have a general idea in what i want but dont know where to begin.

 

[TURBOV6]

You head unit and seperates is a good choice.

I don't really like the Eclipse amps and subs, you can find something much better and cheaper. Don't get me wrong they make good amps but not my choice.

Why do you need a 5 ch amp?

You don't need that 2 ch 4000watt amp.

You need to figure out on how your vehicle is going to supply power for your system.

12's is a good size subs to go with.

 

[6APPEAL]

Blwn87,
Thats right about the front end, except put the seperates in some kick panels (if possible) to enhance the front end staging. By using a mid-range/tweeter seperates and midbass driver with a 4 channel amp you can better control the imaging and volume level of each set. When using a 3 way seperate and 2 channel amp you do not have that same ability. Usally the midbass is too low and the midrange too bright. And you are correct again about the rear of the system, only a midbass driver set and the sub in the rear. Placing the rear midbass in the factory location is fine provided they fit. I have done systems with nothing in the rear except the subs due to space or money limitations. With a high power head unit you could get away without the rear amp. Just some other considerations.

Using Dynamat will allow you to get more volume by reducing the noise from the outside of the car along with reducing the rattles induced by the speakers into each panels. You easily get the same volume from less power or more volume with the same power. I've found the best bets are the doors, hatch/trunk/quarter panels, floor, firewall and roof last. I've done before and after comparisons and picked up as much as 4 db by doing the doors and trunks in W body cars (front wheel drive Regals, Grand Prix, etc). A quick rule of thumb is that to sound twice as loud (3 db) to the human ear you need to either double cone area or double power. So you should see why it's cheaper to do sound deadening material.

Build the sub box out of 3/4" MDF. Very dense, no voids like plywood, doesn't rattle. The easiest place to put your amp rack would be on the sub box, the top or back.

Here is a link to the Kenwood unit I put in a buddies SUV.
http://www.cardomain.com/item/KENDDX7017

Just here to help. That's what these communites are for. Of course not every one has the same ideas or taste, but that's what makes life interesting. I felt I was just giving you a general guideline. You best bet is to listen to as many systems as you can (both in store and in cars/trucks) to help you determine what you think will work for you. HTH
John

 

[Blwn87]

Here are some more issues i may see down the line

1. Most car audio places will not install components that are not bought through them (at least not around me).
2. If they even smell that you dont know exactly what your doing they will mark up their labor costs so everyone in the shop can take their opposites out for a steak dinner.
3. This may be completely stupid but I happen to work for a sheet metal fabrication company were their specialty happens to be making boxes that are UL certified (water tight). If i got the dimensions for a sub box i could get the box made out of Stainless Steel, Aluminum, or Cold-Rolled Steel for little to no $.

 

[SilverSleeper]

The last thing you want to do is make a sub box out of metal, of any kind.
It sounds like a cool idea, and may look cool...
But think...
Why are you going to sound-deaden the Metal panels in your car?
Metal vibrates at specified frequencies. Its bad enough you have to dampen your car, why dampen your box too?
I agree with 6appeal on the rear speaker idea. My car does not have anything for rear fill. If you get a decent set of components up front, and set them up to produce a good soundstage (ie kickpanels, I have the Q-forms in mine) you will not need rear fill.
And I would try to avoid buying from crutchfield, simply because I think generally their stuff is overpriced. And, especially, with a headunit, do not buy it online without seeing one in person first and actually looking at it, adjusting it, playing with the different functions, etc. it may look good on your computer screen, but you may hate it in person.

 

[6APPEAL]

I did install a box made out of aluminum sheet for a guy once. He built it after I had given him the dimensions of the box. It cost him more money in sound deadening material than to build the box. I ended up putting about 5 layers of material on the interoir panels just to keep it from sounding like a tin can. I also had 5 pounds of fiberfill in each chanber. I still had to build MDF speaker rings to mount the woofers in. That polished aluminum was pretty, but sounded like crap. Every panel still vibrated so it looked like the box was breathing as the subs hit, which caused the box internal volume to changed constantly. Not what a speaker likes.

The only box that I've heard that was made out of metal that sounded worth anything was a ported enclosure with 4 Kicker L7 12's. It took 6 people to pick it up and put it in the bed of the full size truck it went in. The box was built entirely out of 1/4" plate steel. The interior of the box had a Dynamat Extreme door kit in each chamber along with 10 pounds of fiberfill in each chanber. The exterior was sprayed with Line-X. It got real loud, which was what he wanted.
John

 

[Blwn87]

Just when you thought i couldnt get any dumber, i go ahead and do something like this, and totally redeem myself.

Please explain to me why almost every piece of speaker equipment comes in a 2 ohm and a 4 ohm setting. Whats the difference?

Still havent heard anything about first two problems (maybe because its letting out business secrets that the government has classified)
1. Most car audio places will not install components that are not bought through them (at least not around me).
2. If they even smell that you dont know exactly what your doing they will mark up their labor/installation costs so everyone in the shop can take their opposites out for a steak dinner.

 

[Googs]

To answer your 2 q's:
1. The 2 shops I worked at did install equipment not sold by them, but didn't warrenty said equipment. It could just be a potental hassel they don't want to deal with. Diffrent shops, diffrent policies.

2 If you find a shop raising prices because you don't have much knowledge, run away. You don't want to deal with them anyways. Easiest thing to do, is write down some things you're looking for in your install. Take it to several shops and get quotes, that way you're compairing apples to apples & not to oranges.

Ohms are the amount of resistents that the your amp sees. The lower the ohms the more "power" you'll see, but just like everything else, you can have to much (to low).

 

[6APPEAL]

Blwn87,
Sorry for ignoring the questions about shops.
1. Goggs is correct in the reason why shops do not want to install equipment not purchased in their shop. If they or you kill it there will be a warranty problem. You should notice that most warranty papers void or decrease the warranty if it is not installed by a dealer.

2. And do run very fast away from any shop that you even suspect is looking for a pigeon. If you ask around you might be able to find some independent guys (such as myself) that do very high quality installs. But you should be prepared to pay a preminum price and expect a wait. I've done some installs that take as long as 3 months. It all depends on what you want. The independent guys you talk to should not have any problems showing you examples of their work. If not, keep looking until you find what you want.

Ohms is the load placed on the amp by the speaker(s). By using a lower ohm speaker, you normally get an increase in power, depending on how the amp is designed. But there is a trade off for using lower ohm drivers. You will produce more heat from you amp, possibly running into thermal protection. Some amps also have load protection and will see too low of an ohm load as a short and not turn on. In my opinion the biggest trade off to running a lower ohm driver is the amp will lose some of it damping factor, which is the ability of the amp to control the voltage used to drive the speaker. When you lose enough damping factor the music starts sounding muddy, not crisp and tight. HTH
John

 

[SilverSleeper]

Plus, to add to the ohms question...

Some of it just has to do with configuration of your setup. When you get into multiple subs, and multiple amps, having a choice for your resistance load will open up sub configurations you can have. This way with any given amp setup, you can vary the number of subs you can run safely by using different rated subs. I have an amp that is only designed to handle a 4 ohm mono load when its bridged. So, if I wanted to run 2 subs, they either had to be 2 ohms run in series or 8 ohms run in parallel. If I tried to run only 2 4 ohm loads, it would end up as either 2 ohms mono or 8 ohms stereo, neither of which is very good. So by having subs rated at different resistances, it opens up your options as far as configurations go.