Getting to the bottom of 2-3 shift flair

[TurboBuRick]

Even though my trans was rebuilt by the most reputible trans guy in my area (Jimmy's) 2nd to 3rd gear shift flaired the first time I got on it a little. Seemed to me the real problem was the fact that it shifts to early from 2nd to 3rd. Thats what is causing the flair. So I call Jimmy, he said bring it back he will take a look. After test driving he said its fine. Thats the nature of the beast. You have to put it to the floor to get a good 2-3 shift or you will fry third. This just really seems like a load of crap. I would like to know who gets 2-3 flair @ 3/4 throttle and who the trans builder is.

 

[JDSfastGN]

i would have to feel the shift, but imo no flare is normal or acceptable in a 200-4r no matter what the throttle angle is. Common does not mean normal lol. It will with out a doubt burn the clutches over time. I have had a flare in the past before I started dual feeding the 2-3 clutches after reading a few recomendations by Chris at CK. This has been discussed a lot and some are strong believers in dual feeding but others have found other ways whether it be higher line pressures or other adjustments. I would not let it go if you are not happy with it. It sounds like a small adjustment in the valvebody plate hole sizing may be able to help adjust the band release to be better timed with the 2-3 apply. Good luck man.

 

[turbot2496]

I would like to know who gets 2-3 flair @ 3/4 throttle

none

and who the trans builder is.

me

car is slow , runs 12.37 on the stock turbo, intercooler and heads with a 1.63 short time. Trans seems to be holding up though. Basically a stock rebuild. Higher pressure valve in the pump. All pack clearances to Bruce's recommendation. Some debate over that but seems to be working for me so far. No shift kit but it shifts pretty good. Pats 2800rpm stall convertor. About 50 runs on it.

 

[chris718]

2/3 flairs get very noticable when the car is making close to 450 hp and the engine is spun to 5000 rpms plus on a 2/3 shift.dual feed is the answer.the problem is the rate of clutch apply in the clutch drum verses the the rate of band knockoff at the servo.it is entirely possible to apply the clutches before the band comes off for a split second . this can be caused by orificed 3rd acc oil traveling to the servo too slow and the feed holes for the direct clutch being too large as well.dual feed provides super positive clutch apply without the flair above 1/2 throttle and all the way up to full throttle.they key is proper hole sizing in the plate although we have developed another circuit that works even better.the flair will burn the clutches over time.it is also possible to have the clutches apply too slow when the band is knocked off.this puts the transmission planetary gear set back into first gear and then into third on a 2/3 shift.this kills the clutches as the drum is turning opposite the input shaft and then with the input shaft in a split second.this kills the clutches and the flair is the trans actually going back to first gear and grabbing third.

 

[TurboBuRick]

2/3 flairs get very noticable when the car is making close to 450 hp and the engine is spun to 5000 rpms plus on a 2/3 shift.dual feed is the answer.the problem is the rate of clutch apply in the clutch drum verses the the rate of band knockoff at the servo.it is entirely possible to apply the clutches before the band comes off for a split second . this can be caused by orificed 3rd acc oil traveling to the servo too slow and the feed holes for the direct clutch being too large as well.dual feed provides super positive clutch apply without the flair above 1/2 throttle and all the way up to full throttle.they key is proper hole sizing in the plate although we have developed another circuit that works even better.the flair will burn the clutches over time.it is also possible to have the clutches apply too slow when the band is knocked off.this puts the transmission planetary gear set back into first gear and then into third on a 2/3 shift.this kills the clutches as the drum is turning opposite the input shaft and then with the input shaft in a split second.this kills the clutches and the flair is the trans actually going back to first gear and grabbing third.

Thanks Chris
I was waiting for your response. What you describe is exactly to the t, my situation. You say dual feed is the answer. I wonder if Jimmy will know when I tell him about this. I would think he should already know this. I new this was'nt right. Thanks for you knowledge my friend.

 

[bison]

No shift flair here. Trans done by me. I dual feed the directs. I also altered the 2-3 oil as Chris mentioned in his mods to help prevent bindup at low throttle angles. All the mods i did to the 2-3 shift circuit were reccomended by Chris. There should be no flair at all or it will not last. Btw this car will have close to 600 rwhp when i crank it to 28-30 psi. I will report back if there is any 2-3 probs. I doubt there will be. I dont use larger than .500 boost valve or excessive reg spring pressure either. Its not need if the directs are dual fed and the pump is in good shape. When increasing line pressures above 250psi you need to verify that converter pressures are not to high or you will push to hard on the thrust in the engine and cause a big problem. DonWG has a lot of good info in another thread about converter pressures.

 

[mikestertwo]

I have also been dual feeding the direct clutch on transmissions I rebuild for about 12 years now and have noticed on some I do get some binding at small throttle angles between the 2-3 shift. Is this caused by the RND4-D3 orifice in the spacer plate feeding the 2-3 shift valve being too large? Would this also cause a 2-3 hunting problem? I have experienced both problems with this mod.

 

[bison]

I have also been dual feeding the direct clutch on transmissions I rebuild for about 12 years now and have noticed on some I do get some binding at small throttle angles between the 2-3 shift. Is this caused by the RND4-D3 orifice in the spacer plate feeding the 2-3 shift valve being too large? Would this also cause a 2-3 hunting problem? I have experienced both problems with this mod.

How big is the accum orifice in the plate on the dual fed units?

 

[Brer Rabbit]

My car is at Jimmys right now for a similar problem.

Thanks Chris
I was waiting for your response. What you describe is exactly to the t, my situation. You say dual feed is the answer. I wonder if Jimmy will know when I tell him about this. I would think he should already know this. I new this was'nt right. Thanks for you knowledge my friend.

I have a 2-3 flare but I also have a 1-2 flare. It was the 2nd time at the track when I noticed the problem---6 passes total, but the car was driven to Iowa and back and it had quite a few hard street passes while attempting to tune. Anyway when I brought it to Jimmy I told him exactly how I was driving the car, the 3/4 throttle passes while tuning is most likely what screwed my trans. He also stated he didnt build the trans to survive in a 10 second car. He is very careful with his builds in relation to the horsepower/ e.t. s run by the customer. And as far as the dual feed thing, yeah he knows about that, we were discussing that as an option after he opens it up and checks everything. I will let u know more when he calls me.

 

[Sweet6]

I had two transmissions done by Jimmy. Both mid to high 11 second cars. No flairs and the 2-3 shifts are very quick and firm. I bought the billet drum versions because he said he dual feeds the 2-3 shift only on billet drum version. The extra $400 was well worth it IMO. I did not want to see the 2-3 flair ever again. So far so good. Both cars have at least 10 11 second passes on them.

I did a lot of research before I had my cars done. It seemed like the dual feed was the way to go. I am glad I went that route after reading this post.

I know 3 guys running mid to high 10s with Jimmy's trans for a few years. But Jimmy did tell me high 10s were about the limits for his transmissions. 10.50s is the fastest anyone I know has run with a Jimmy's 200 trans.

I heard Lonnie Diers builds great 200s. But I think his built trans is about $2800 with a brake. Comes with a lot of billet parts too. If my Jimmy trans fails, I may try Lonnie. I guess it depends how fast you are going and how much you can spend. I think he also has a cheaper version. But if you are laying down 10 second passes, I do not think you have much choice but to go all out on a 200 rebuild IMO.

 

[Otto J]

If you dual feed the directs,its best you have a better forward drum,The ART CARR hardened work real well and is a good budget peice if you dont want to spen on billet

 

[TurboBuRick]

I have a 2-3 flare but I also have a 1-2 flare. It was the 2nd time at the track when I noticed the problem---6 passes total, but the car was driven to Iowa and back and it had quite a few hard street passes while attempting to tune. Anyway when I brought it to Jimmy I told him exactly how I was driving the car, the 3/4 throttle passes while tuning is most likely what screwed my trans. He also stated he didnt build the trans to survive in a 10 second car. He is very careful with his builds in relation to the horsepower/ e.t. s run by the customer. And as far as the dual feed thing, yeah he knows about that, we were discussing that as an option after he opens it up and checks everything. I will let u know more when he calls me.

Brer, thanks for the reply,
I told Jimmy 500hp+ when he built my trans. I will be insisting on the dual feed thing. Flair at any throttle angle is unacceptable in my book.
Mine needs to go back asap. Keep me posted.

 

[Russ Merritt]

If you dual feed the directs,its best you have a better forward drum,The ART CARR hardened work real well and is a good budget peice if you dont want to spen on billet

I agree...

 

[Grumpy]

I think a good 200 should take 10 sec runs for at lease a year

 

[1BUICKGN]

I guess we will know by the end of next year.

 

[Daniel Jost]

Where is Jimmy's located, and a phone # also, what do his rebuilds cost? Had someone rebuild my trans around here, and now i have really bad problems!

Thanks,Dan

 

[Russ Merritt]

I guess we will know by the end of next year.

How's that stock TV cable doing????? Still workin?

 

[SVORay]

Where is Jimmy's located, and a phone # also, what do his rebuilds cost? Had someone rebuild my trans around here, and now i have really bad problems!

Thanks,Dan

The more and more I read threads like this, the more I fear my transmession. The cheapest I found one for was like 1600.00 shipped and they run up to 5000.00 bux I think. My transmession seems to be doing good as far as the 2-3 flar goes but I have since turned my boost from 23psi down to 15psi. Now I've read you don't feel it as much unless you're at a higher boost. So I'm guessing I still need a rebuild even if I figure out my first gear issue without pulling it a part. I just can't see spending 3000.00 bux on a gear box. My last gear box I had rebuilt was a TH400 and I spent 475.00 and it took everything I dished out to it. The TH400 is cheaper even in todays cost increase but I really want an OD

 

[1BUICKGN]

How's that stock TV cable doing????? Still workin?

i have only driven it about seven times since it was rebuilt and it seems to be fine right now.. i never made it to the track with the car this year after all.

 

[Sweet6]

Brer, thanks for the reply,
I told Jimmy 500hp+ when he built my trans. I will be insisting on the dual feed thing. Flair at any throttle angle is unacceptable in my book.
Mine needs to go back asap. Keep me posted.

That is weird Jimmy did not recomend the billtet drum version. I told him I was going to run mid to high 11s and he said get the billet drum one. The transmissions are rock solid so far. We'll see how long they hold up.