Girdle
- Thread starter Razor
- Start date
Thats the point, see some time ago, it was the belief you couldnt run one without changing x-members. Hence my post to clear the misconception.
If you search on the subject, hence why Steve went to the k-member initially I believe. Latter to have issues with the strut towers starting to crack. I shouldnt speak for Steve, but at the time this issue arose some time ago.. it was the consensus.
Also why a lot went to only running steel caps cuase they believed the girdle wouldnt clear.
If you search on the subject, hence why Steve went to the k-member initially I believe. Latter to have issues with the strut towers starting to crack. I shouldnt speak for Steve, but at the time this issue arose some time ago.. it was the consensus.
Also why a lot went to only running steel caps cuase they believed the girdle wouldnt clear.
turbov6joe
Signal 1 J-12
- Joined
- May 22, 2002
That's good news Julio, I've been wanting to install a girdle since the first time I had the motor out. Have you heard of any other TTA owners bitching about the polly motor mounts causing BAD vibrations? If the vibrations are anything like the ones I had when I tried a polly tranny mount....I'm not even remotely interested!
I actually like the girdle idea over the caps.. less chance for a bone head machine shop error line boring.
Have had no experience on the poly mount issue. Great you can start a post.
If I keep this car.. i'm gonna girdle it. And check for clearance using the block, girdle, oil pan for measurementand stock mounts..
I also contemplated having the pan shortened, pickup shortened.. to give it that little 1/2 inch.
Have had no experience on the poly mount issue. Great you can start a post.
If I keep this car.. i'm gonna girdle it.
And check for clearance using the block, girdle, oil pan for measurementand stock mounts.. I also contemplated having the pan shortened, pickup shortened.. to give it that little 1/2 inch.
You cant inspect.. not that anyone should replace bearings without checking for proper clearances..You need to remove girdle to get to the main caps. Typically the girdle is RTV'd to the block..yay .. gotta pull the motor.
You wanna play hard.. it comes always at a cost.
HTH
I asked race Jace about the girdle clearance in the TTA, He did not say it would or would not fit...Heck we ordered it anyhow...the thing works so well on our GN's that I was willing to do whatever to make it work on the TTA. We have not ordered Motor mounts yet...the poly ones our on our "check out" list...but so are a set of fresh stockers. Dont look forward to "good vibrations" or broken mounts either. Guess we will have to suffer one way or another?!
> but so are a set of fresh stockers
Not sure where you are gonna find those. I know one side is definitely no longer made and the other may be MIA by now.
I still like the idea of the Eagle steel crank and caps instead of the girdle. When I hit the lotto I'll do one in with a girdle and the other without and see which lasts longer
Not sure where you are gonna find those. I know one side is definitely no longer made and the other may be MIA by now.
I still like the idea of the Eagle steel crank and caps instead of the girdle. When I hit the lotto I'll do one in with a girdle and the other without and see which lasts longer
Originally posted by mark b
> but so are a set of fresh stockers
Not sure where you are gonna find those. I know one side is definitely no longer made and the other may be MIA by now.
I still like the idea of the Eagle steel crank and caps instead of the girdle. When I hit the lotto I'll do one in with a girdle and the other without and see which lasts longer
You can swap one side to the other. No biggie.
I have a reliable source that has said the Eagle crank is not all its cracked up to be. The first ones were great.. now its a different story. They've been having to send a few back for issues.
I like the stock caps with girdle.. cost the same as the steel caps after all is said and done.
Just my .02
turbov6joe
Signal 1 J-12
- Joined
- May 22, 2002
How many of you would purchase a TTA specific block girdle? I spoke with RJC about this before BG this year and he said it might be something to look into if the demand was high enough....what that demand is remains to be seen??? Even if he made the girdle slightly thinner, that would be better than nothing at all IMO.
I like the thick girdle. It fits.. so whats the issue. I would even have a chassis shop section a piece of x-member to make clearance. Like they do a frame notch. No biggie.
or get the poly mounts.. done.
Beg of next year.. if I dont drive over the one I have.
or get the poly mounts.. done.
Beg of next year.. if I dont drive over the one I have.
I like the idea of a girdle more than the two caps. That may be the way I go eventually. The only thing I dont understand is why guys put alot of money into beefing up a 109 block. Ive seen guys put in all 4 billet caps and a girdle and the $$'s for the machine work. You can buy a stage block for less than that if you keep your eyes open. I know alot of people say stage motor build ups are big $$'s but I think they're a little wrong. Stage motors are expensive when you go for the radical builds and the crazy HP. You can use almost all stock parts with a stage build up if you go with stock or stock style heads.
If you pick up an off center stage block the only goofy thing you need is a $500 Duttwieller oiling system.
If you pick up an on center block then you need on center rods($400 to $600 for a nice used set), a Bowling green customs on center intake($650 to $700 used), and the Dutt oiling system ($500).
Thats what you HAVE to spend money on. Buying the parts you can spend money on is what drives the price way up. I have a real nice undamaged late 3.8L on center block(the strongest stage block made), a LA Enterprises kryptonite billet crankshaft(one of the best cranks you can get your hands on), 6.5" Carrillo on center rods (good to about 1200 hp), and a bowling green customs on center intake. I have a few other parts also but I only have $3000 in the parts listed. This stage short block set up will probably only cost me around $1000 more than a beefed up 109 build up. Considering that I plan on shifting at 6K or less and that I'm going to run stock 8 bolt heads I dont think I'll ever be able to ever really damage the motor (head gaskets should always fail first) I would also expect the increase in the value of the car to be greater than the extra $1000 or so it cost to build the stage motor.
The whole reasoning behind this is simple. I ran pretty good times on a stock long block because I was cranking on it pretty good. Now I have had two budies with some expensive 109 build ups they had all the $$'s in go fast parts and the only $$'s they had strength wise was the two center caps. Now I cant run with either of those two cars they are out of my league, but they both have a problem. They invested alot (to me and them anyways) of mony in those motors and they a afraid to lean on them to make them run really hard. They can't afford to tear them motors up, and at the HP level they would be at if they did crank them up they know they would be rolling the dice. All those big $$'s spent to be able to make the horse power just to be affraid to actually do it.
Jason
p.s: I will be right in a simillar senerio in a couple of weeks. I will be putting ported heads and intake on my car. Alot of buddies are wanting to know how fast I think i'll go then. I dont think I will go much faster at all. I will be affraid to run much faster on that stock short block. I tell them I will basically wind up just running less boost. So all this work and money over these heads and intake will be just so that my boost gauge shows a few pounds less boost....WOOHOO! Now caps and girdle or stage short block.... I would be shooting for the 9.90 to 10.50 range.
If you pick up an off center stage block the only goofy thing you need is a $500 Duttwieller oiling system.
If you pick up an on center block then you need on center rods($400 to $600 for a nice used set), a Bowling green customs on center intake($650 to $700 used), and the Dutt oiling system ($500).
Thats what you HAVE to spend money on. Buying the parts you can spend money on is what drives the price way up. I have a real nice undamaged late 3.8L on center block(the strongest stage block made), a LA Enterprises kryptonite billet crankshaft(one of the best cranks you can get your hands on), 6.5" Carrillo on center rods (good to about 1200 hp), and a bowling green customs on center intake. I have a few other parts also but I only have $3000 in the parts listed. This stage short block set up will probably only cost me around $1000 more than a beefed up 109 build up. Considering that I plan on shifting at 6K or less and that I'm going to run stock 8 bolt heads I dont think I'll ever be able to ever really damage the motor (head gaskets should always fail first) I would also expect the increase in the value of the car to be greater than the extra $1000 or so it cost to build the stage motor.
The whole reasoning behind this is simple. I ran pretty good times on a stock long block because I was cranking on it pretty good. Now I have had two budies with some expensive 109 build ups they had all the $$'s in go fast parts and the only $$'s they had strength wise was the two center caps. Now I cant run with either of those two cars they are out of my league, but they both have a problem. They invested alot (to me and them anyways) of mony in those motors and they a afraid to lean on them to make them run really hard. They can't afford to tear them motors up, and at the HP level they would be at if they did crank them up they know they would be rolling the dice. All those big $$'s spent to be able to make the horse power just to be affraid to actually do it.
Jason
p.s: I will be right in a simillar senerio in a couple of weeks. I will be putting ported heads and intake on my car. Alot of buddies are wanting to know how fast I think i'll go then. I dont think I will go much faster at all. I will be affraid to run much faster on that stock short block. I tell them I will basically wind up just running less boost. So all this work and money over these heads and intake will be just so that my boost gauge shows a few pounds less boost....WOOHOO! Now caps and girdle or stage short block.... I would be shooting for the 9.90 to 10.50 range.
The rods and intake manifold are the parts that dont interchange. All the other parts do. I looked into stage motors about 6 years ago and at that time I had decided off center was the way to go. Now I know a few guys with stage motors and know a little more.
I wanted good rods any ways and oncenter rods are actually stronger and much easier to find which makes them alot cheaper. The on center BGC intakes are out there not easiest thing to find but they go for the same price as a BGC off center intake so there is no EXTRA cost if you wanted to run one of those manifolds anyway. A crank works in either block (the rods make up the on or off center part). If you do go to a steel crank there is extra money involed because you need to run a neutral balanced harmonic balancer and flex plate. Now a hipo motor should have a good balancer and sfi flex plate any way and those cost the same money as thier stock style counter parts anyways. Cams are the same if you run stock style heads, custom J&E pistons are the same price wether for a stock TTA build up or a stage build up ect....
Basically you do this:
1. buy a stage block
2. decide on what crank to run, after market cranks will require special balancer and flex plate
3. now you know what rods to get, the block will determine if you need on or off center and the crank will decide if you need wide or narrow journal ones.
4. pick what heads your going to run, if you go to stage heads the list of special parts goes up.
5. Between the block, crank, rods, and heads you will be able to order your custom pistons. You can get the custom made J&E's for under $700 with pins.
Basically on center stuff is the strongest and most reliable. If your planning on running a good rotating assembly in the motor any way then the only down side to on center is having to get ahold of a BGC on center intake manifold. I Paid $700 for the intake I got. Now Champion charges $250+ exchange for a ported intake, a 70 mm dog house is around a $150 or so (I think) so thats $400 in the intake. Now on center rods are MUCH easier to find and will be from about $200 to $400 cheaper than off center ones. You will still have the stock manifold as an extra now which you could sell for around $100 or so. All said and done the intake manifold issue is a wash and the whole which stage block a guy should try to pick up starts leaning towards the stronger easier to find on center blocks if the guy is planing on running a beefed up rotating assembly. Now Eagle is making those cranks for a nice price IF they come out with some nice priced off center rods to go with them and a guy already has a nice ported stock intake AND the guy is lucky enough to come across a nice off center block thats set up to run stock style oiling system AND the block is priced right...... GO TIME! Now I came across one of these blocks about 6 years ago BUT it was a whole motor and it had all odd fire internals. If that would have been an even fire set up I would not even own a TTA. My nephews car would still be mine and it would have a FULL stage motor in it. This was a $25,000 motor that was in excellent shape that I could have bought for $3500! OMG you should have seen these heads, they had the "Z" shaped off set shaft mounted rocker arms and matching mechanical roller lifters with the off set hole for the push rods. Since the push rods where moved so far they actually moved the wall over and the ports where huge. This motor was 260 or so cubic inches and made 680 hp w/o a turbo! I didnt buy it because I was told at that time there wasn't anyway to get the injection and ignition right. I believe I was told wrong. Most F.A.S.T systems aren't sequential any way and who says you have to run a DIS? ODD fire guts are also the strongest pieces you can get you hands on.
Sorry for being so wordy: Jason
Jason
I wanted good rods any ways and oncenter rods are actually stronger and much easier to find which makes them alot cheaper. The on center BGC intakes are out there not easiest thing to find but they go for the same price as a BGC off center intake so there is no EXTRA cost if you wanted to run one of those manifolds anyway. A crank works in either block (the rods make up the on or off center part). If you do go to a steel crank there is extra money involed because you need to run a neutral balanced harmonic balancer and flex plate. Now a hipo motor should have a good balancer and sfi flex plate any way and those cost the same money as thier stock style counter parts anyways. Cams are the same if you run stock style heads, custom J&E pistons are the same price wether for a stock TTA build up or a stage build up ect....
Basically you do this:
1. buy a stage block
2. decide on what crank to run, after market cranks will require special balancer and flex plate
3. now you know what rods to get, the block will determine if you need on or off center and the crank will decide if you need wide or narrow journal ones.
4. pick what heads your going to run, if you go to stage heads the list of special parts goes up.
5. Between the block, crank, rods, and heads you will be able to order your custom pistons. You can get the custom made J&E's for under $700 with pins.
Basically on center stuff is the strongest and most reliable. If your planning on running a good rotating assembly in the motor any way then the only down side to on center is having to get ahold of a BGC on center intake manifold. I Paid $700 for the intake I got. Now Champion charges $250+ exchange for a ported intake, a 70 mm dog house is around a $150 or so (I think) so thats $400 in the intake. Now on center rods are MUCH easier to find and will be from about $200 to $400 cheaper than off center ones. You will still have the stock manifold as an extra now which you could sell for around $100 or so. All said and done the intake manifold issue is a wash and the whole which stage block a guy should try to pick up starts leaning towards the stronger easier to find on center blocks if the guy is planing on running a beefed up rotating assembly. Now Eagle is making those cranks for a nice price IF they come out with some nice priced off center rods to go with them and a guy already has a nice ported stock intake AND the guy is lucky enough to come across a nice off center block thats set up to run stock style oiling system AND the block is priced right...... GO TIME! Now I came across one of these blocks about 6 years ago BUT it was a whole motor and it had all odd fire internals. If that would have been an even fire set up I would not even own a TTA. My nephews car would still be mine and it would have a FULL stage motor in it. This was a $25,000 motor that was in excellent shape that I could have bought for $3500! OMG you should have seen these heads, they had the "Z" shaped off set shaft mounted rocker arms and matching mechanical roller lifters with the off set hole for the push rods. Since the push rods where moved so far they actually moved the wall over and the ports where huge. This motor was 260 or so cubic inches and made 680 hp w/o a turbo! I didnt buy it because I was told at that time there wasn't anyway to get the injection and ignition right. I believe I was told wrong. Most F.A.S.T systems aren't sequential any way and who says you have to run a DIS? ODD fire guts are also the strongest pieces you can get you hands on.
Sorry for being so wordy: Jason
Jason
>You can buy a stage block for less than that if you keep your >eyes open. I know alot of people say stage motor build ups are >big $$'s but I think they're a little wrong.
I'm a little confused but I've been out the loop here on this stuff lately, so I wondered if I could pass a few questions/comments by everyone.
I don't think I've seen a bare stage block for less than $2500 lately, no? Usually around $3000-3500???? Then you need to machine the block.
I must have missed something because it cost less than $500 for the line bore and associated machining for my block. No assembly cost in there of course. A girdle cost $369. IMHO, if you are building a engine the "right" way, you'd do a line bore, align hone, etc anyway. So less than $1K for the girdle and machining.
That's along way from $2-3K for a bare block.
I know I'm missing something so what is it? I've had this discussion numerous times that I would prefer to go off-center stage block rather than steel caps and a girdle.
Thanks for any additional info or thoughts!
I'm a little confused but I've been out the loop here on this stuff lately, so I wondered if I could pass a few questions/comments by everyone.
I don't think I've seen a bare stage block for less than $2500 lately, no? Usually around $3000-3500???? Then you need to machine the block.
I must have missed something because it cost less than $500 for the line bore and associated machining for my block. No assembly cost in there of course. A girdle cost $369. IMHO, if you are building a engine the "right" way, you'd do a line bore, align hone, etc anyway. So less than $1K for the girdle and machining.
That's along way from $2-3K for a bare block.
I know I'm missing something so what is it? I've had this discussion numerous times that I would prefer to go off-center stage block rather than steel caps and a girdle.
Thanks for any additional info or thoughts!
