Gm loses almost 31B, HOW and WHY?

[ronbuick]

GM lost almost 31 Billion dollars and sells about 9 million cars, is this
right, how can you sell that many vehicles and lose that amount of money, did not Toyota sell just a few more cars and made money, can someone please tell me how this all works or in GM's case does not work???

Ron

 

[rtviper]

UNIONS. That is why. With benefits GM pays about $70.00 an hour average wage. Toyota and most Imports set up shop in the South and are non union and average about $35.00 an hour. GM made concessions many years ago to their workers with no idea health care would be so costly many years later.

 

[GregInAtl]

UNIONS. That is why. With benefits GM pays about $70.00 an hour average wage. Toyota and most Imports set up shop in the South and are non union and average about $35.00 an hour. GM made concessions many years ago to their workers with no idea health care would be so costly many years later.

It sucks that the mafia, I mean union is strangling the life out of this country via unionization (Which I agree was once needed to create a fair wage...now it allows everyone well over median salary to all) but now its a shame that the workers are nearly (not nearly, literally) forced into the union. I say this knowing thru a relative who works in the vette plant in KY. He is in the union, and hates it. he says mafia when referring to the union.

 

[Grumpy]

If GM were a horse you would shoot it to put it out of its misery

 

[Gary Wells]

Why would they have an incentive to make money when the taxpayers will reimburse them to keep their doors open
Top execs make top bucks
Union is strangling them financially
Just like the banks, they are probably hiding big money for their top execs
They like Lears

 

[rtviper]

The unions started with great intentions but then became power hungry. A lot like politicians when they 1st get into office. After a while they start lining their own pockets. That's the story line for most all Americans. Look at all the greed and corruption that has been exposed so far and imagine how much is going on that no one has brought to light. When people say just let the market work itself out they are looking at people through rose colored glasses. Who can you trust these days to do what's right? Politicians, Clergyman, CEO's, Bankers, Lawyers, Judges, etc etc they are all out to fill their own pockets. They all need oversite.
Are there some who are willing to do good, yes and most of them are extremely rich and have no need to line their own pockets. People like B. Gates and W. Buffett have billion's and share

 

[Darkcyde]

1. cus the manufacturer of my Prius is Toyota and not General Motors
-my 04 Prius now has 94k on it, 50 miles a gallon only oil and filters change. stock breaks/pads
and spark plugs and still gets 45 miles a gallon. No major minor repairs yet.

2. GM company can't afford retirements and benefits compared to Asian cut throat style of overseas business
(their not interested in price floors overseas, they want to cut each other out not help each other gain profits)

3. cus wasting money on hybrid suv's is retarded and a complete burn of resources
(tweaking already wasteful suv's was NOT A SMART INVESTMENT!!!)

4. cus American greed set in, and GM just sat on their profits forever without reinvesting some of those
billions and billions of dollars into itself. they sat on their profits and didn't invest in their future, now they
think they'll save themselves by robbing the worker and the customer, more retarded ideas from GM!

5. their a little to late for change, because they haven't invested in themselves; the workers and their
customers surfer! (lay offs, and no more special divisions. the recent closing of this didn't surprise me 1 bit)
- They need to reinvent themselves, but with the NOW international partial ownerships, and the signed agreement
with the US gov for their bail out. I don't see them doing much of anything new in terms of power cars or efficient cars.
- At least ford didn't take the bail out because they actually read the fine print of the bail out!

6. -the money I have saved in these 5 years from fuel VS my GN, the Prius paid for itself off already
-I just freaking wish it said CHEVY instead of toyfarta


- Imho of course! But what the hell do I know I bought my Prius 5 years ago. I've had the luxury of saying,
"20 on #1 please........" then actually getting change is priceless. 500 miles on 1 tank = not priceless but close to it in a prius.

 

[Rivical]

The unions started with great intentions but then became power hungry. A lot like politicians when they 1st get into office. After a while they start lining their own pockets. That's the story line for most all Americans. Look at all the greed and corruption that has been exposed so far and imagine how much is going on that no one has brought to light. When people say just let the market work itself out they are looking at people through rose colored glasses. Who can you trust these days to do what's right? Politicians, Clergyman, CEO's, Bankers, Lawyers, Judges, etc etc they are all out to fill their own pockets. They all need oversite.
Are there some who are willing to do good, yes and most of them are extremely rich and have no need to line their own pockets. People like B. Gates and W. Buffett have billion's and share

Thank you for modifying your stance from your original posting of blather about unions being the whole problem. Even with problems they are better than having the working people subject to the Corp wolves. To any others...

You're pushing the whole BS political agenda of the Elite dipsh!ts who caused the problem in reality. That makes YOU part of the problem, not the unions. Quit spewing the lies straight from the last opening of your MSM newspimp's mouth for starters and LEARN what you're talking about!

Want the REAL problem? It's called globalization, free trade, deregulation for the sake of deregulating. A 'Free Market' can only exist with a substantive amount of regulation. Alla you whiney idiots are pissy that UNION jobs have continued to keep pace with actual inflation until just this past year while alla YOUR jobs have been stagnated for the past 20yrs because of several factors.
1. Corporate GREED-the higher ups are at an all time high in pay vs. the 'workers'
2. Corporate GREED-a free market will always have a cheaper source of labor somewhere in the world.
3. Corporate GREED-policies in business have been changed to reflect only the short term profit for Wall Street's benefit while long term wealth and even existance is ignored Look how Dana Corp suffered from that one...just for starter's...


I could go on all day like this...
Idiots who are rushing to accept the yokes of the elite are rightly angered, but for the wrong reasons. Where's YOUR raise? Or where's the right amount of protection for YOUR business to exist in America vs some POS in another country? We're all headed for tar paper shacks and rickshaws, and you think the UNIONS are at fault? THE UNIONS are the last thing stopping it!!!!!!!

The automakers are in trouble because of policies designed by the elite ruling party to destroy the last empowerment of regular people. By destroying any corporation that supports this empowerment, they win. THAT SIMPLE!

 

[19TTA89]

Thank you for modifying your stance from your original posting of blather about unions being the whole problem. Even with problems they are better than having the working people subject to the Corp wolves. To any others...

You're pushing the whole BS political agenda of the Elite dipsh!ts who caused the problem in reality. That makes YOU part of the problem, not the unions. Quit spewing the lies straight from the last opening of your MSM newspimp's mouth for starters and LEARN what you're talking about!

Want the REAL problem? It's called globalization, free trade, deregulation for the sake of deregulating. A 'Free Market' can only exist with a substantive amount of regulation. Alla you whiney idiots are pissy that UNION jobs have continued to keep pace with actual inflation until just this past year while alla YOUR jobs have been stagnated for the past 20yrs because of several factors.
1. Corporate GREED-the higher ups are at an all time high in pay vs. the 'workers'
2. Corporate GREED-a free market will always have a cheaper source of labor somewhere in the world.
3. Corporate GREED-policies in business have been changed to reflect only the short term profit for Wall Street's benefit while long term wealth and even existance is ignored Look how Dana Corp suffered from that one...just for starter's...


I could go on all day like this...
Idiots who are rushing to accept the yokes of the elite are rightly angered, but for the wrong reasons. Where's YOUR raise? Or where's the right amount of protection for YOUR business to exist in America vs some POS in another country? We're all headed for tar paper shacks and rickshaws, and you think the UNIONS are at fault? THE UNIONS are the last thing stopping it!!!!!!!

The automakers are in trouble because of policies designed by the elite ruling party to destroy the last empowerment of regular people. By destroying any corporation that supports this empowerment, they win. THAT SIMPLE!

Finally...Someone who actually gets it...And just doesnt sit there and cry "The Union did it".

All union Contracts are negotiated with the Company,The union didnt force anything on GM or any other auto Manufacturer.Never heard anyone complain when Gm was raking in Tons of money,And sitting atop the auto Industry as #1 for so long...With the same Union workforce.

What happened to the auto industry is of there own doing...period.

 

[rtviper]

Darkcyde
I don't think you have driven your prius a million miles in the last 5 years to equate to a 25k savings on fuel, or would you have driven the GN that many miles had you not purchased a Prius.
The sales of GM and Toyota are nearly the same so your reference to quality as the reason for a profit makes no sense. It's not about the sales number but profit on each unit.
Gm has a nearly 75 billion a year retirement debt to its employees and Toyota about 250 million a year or less. I don't think Toyota's retirement and benefit package comes anywhere close to GM's.

 

[Rivical]

1. Corporate GREED-the higher ups are at an all time high in pay vs. the 'workers'
2. Corporate GREED-a free market will always have a cheaper source of labor somewhere in the world.
3. Corporate GREED-policies in business have been changed to reflect only the short term profit for Wall Street's benefit while long term wealth and even existance is ignored Look how Dana Corp suffered from that one...just for starter's...



The automakers are in trouble because of policies designed by the elite ruling party to destroy the last empowerment of regular people. By destroying any corporation that supports this empowerment, they win. THAT SIMPLE!

What happened to the auto industry is of there own doing...period.

The Auto industry has SUFFERED the doing. It's the political policies that favored investors instead of re-investment and tax bonuses for globalizing at the expense of American taxpayer's/consumer's that's gotten us to economic ruin. And the necessity of bailing out what's left before we as a country are at the mercy of foreign Everything! You me and everybody wants that nickel savings at WalMart and ignore the social implications of destroying our neighbors and countrymen. We have played as the puppets of the Elite's by saving a penny here and there at our own greater expense. Will we be at their mercy soon? Or accept that Capitalism and Socialism are both destructive to actual 'Freedom' alone, yet Both necessary in moderation for 'Democracy' to survive. As painful as it may be to accept, the pendulum must swing back to the center now or we're all done in this 'Grand Experiment in Democracy'. The orgy of capitalism has destroyed what we held high. Now we have to re-invest in our country's interest instead of continuing this downward spiral toward equality with every other third world nation.

 

[rtviper]

TT89
You are correct no one forced GM to agree to the Unions demands. GM did not have the foresight to see where Health Care was heading as far as cost. Much of the huge debt load for retirement and benefits were negotiated in the 50's and 60's.
As for the original question as to why GM loses money selling the same number of cars as Toyota, the answer remains the same. Their 75 billion a year debt for retirement and benefits is why. Add the same debt load to the Import Co. and see how they do. I don't think Toyota lays off employees and still pays them their regular wage while they don't work.
I don't see any way GM can get out of the hole they are in, except go out of business then start over with all new employees and contracts.
Average wage of GM employee with benefits amounts to about $75.00 an hour vs about $35.00 for Toyota

 

[rtviper]

If GM had the same debt load for retirement and benefits as Toyota they would have made about 44 billion last year

 

[Rivical]

UNIONS. That is why. With benefits GM pays about $70.00 an hour average wage. Toyota and most Imports set up shop in the South and are non union and average about $35.00 an hour. GM made concessions many years ago to their workers with no idea health care would be so costly many years later.

Whether it works elsewhere or not, it's time for socialized health care for all Americans. Stomp out the health care lobby and make sure All are cared for. Insurance is nothing more than Government Accepted Extortion anyways. Socialist to begin with. If it's socialist, Make It Socialist!

VEBA--look into it. The UAW is accepting the healthcare costs of retiree's, partly at the expense of current workers.

The quoted UAW wage is a myth, put together by skewing the results of improperly assembled data to benefit the Elite investment class. A Distraction for the gen public outraged at their fellow men and women, while the whole rug is being pulled from under us ALL! You'll be VERY pleased to see the concessions coming to UAW workers in the immediate future. Instead of accepting these MSM BS statements, you should use your obvious intellegence to research the truth. There are 3-sides to every story.

 

[rtviper]

Rivical
What is this MSM you refer to as someone or thing we are quoting?
The total cost of benefits owed to all employee's past and present is obviously shared by current employees since that enormous cost impacts all of them.
I agree with the healthcare issue. Provide it for everyone. Subsidize it with war funds.

 

[Rivical]

1.Um...MainStream Media..? The source of all lies and spin accepted as truth by the sheeple.
2.The total cost is inflated and doubled back in as a means of increasing the percieved total compensation to current employee's. There's even more than that but I think it's like an industrial time-study, you'd need a 40hr training course to Begin to comprehend the ludicrousity of it! The companies get to walk away from their further obligation in VEBA by only providing start-up costs.
3.Amen

 

[rtviper]

The cost from MSM of about $70.00 and hour is correct. Of course it reflects the monies owed to past employees in health and retirement. That $70 billion a year exceeds Toyota by about 69.5 billion yearly. That is why GM is not and will not make a profit.
If your building cars for revenue and $70 billion is going to past employees then that is an expense to the bottom line.
Japanese don't provide health care to employees as they have a national program and retirement isnt provided by the car companies either. That is a huge nut to crack for US companies
I love it when they say GM needs more fuel efficient cars to make a profit. I wonder how many more cars they would need to sell to bring in an extra 70 billion?

 

[19TTA89]

TT89
You are correct no one forced GM to agree to the Unions demands. GM did not have the foresight to see where Health Care was heading as far as cost. Much of the huge debt load for retirement and benefits were negotiated in the 50's and 60's.
As for the original question as to why GM loses money selling the same number of cars as Toyota, the answer remains the same. Their 75 billion a year debt for retirement and benefits is why. Add the same debt load to the Import Co. and see how they do. I don't think Toyota lays off employees and still pays them their regular wage while they don't work.
I don't see any way GM can get out of the hole they are in, except go out of business then start over with all new employees and contracts.
Average wage of GM employee with benefits amounts to about $75.00 an hour vs about $35.00 for Toyota

I will agree,at this point,there is no way out for Gm but to start over.Also...That the demise of Gm is there own doing,Really not the fault of the union.These contracts are usually renegotiated every few years,Im sure at any point in the last decade they could of seen what was happening.

I happen to be a Union member...Local#638 NYC...(SteamFitters)...I cant help to wonder how Mechanical companies in NYC who employ union labor...At a Rate much higher than what is posted as the Autoworkers supposed wage/benefit package...can seem to do so well,As do the rest of the union Trades...While the Auto industry who once did so well with the exact same union labor they still have...Actually much more of it,Cant seem to get out of the Red.

I cant help but to put the blame squarely back on GM Itself/As well as the rest of the Auto industry...Aided by a crappy economy in which many are afraid to make any large purchases.

It also never gets mentioned about the Horrible business deals GM has entered into only to lose tons of money.

They are just finding out now....They are not invincible.

This is just my view/opinion...Not looking to Ruffle any feathers..And have no problem with anyone else's opinion.

 

[Underboost]

TT89

I don't see any way GM can get out of the hole they are in, except go out of business then start over with all new employees and contracts.

*GM should close all factories here in the US.
*Build a plant next to Ford in Brazil.
* Wait 5yrs or so come back to the USA with no UAW union.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Rivical]

*GM should close all factories here in the US.
*Build a plant next to Ford in Brazil.
* Wait 5yrs or so come back to the USA with no UAW union.

Just my 2 cents.

Absolutely!!!!!!!!!! Can I build my shack next to yours? I find it ironic that some obvious businessmen here fail to realize the impact of stagnated or decreasing wages has on their businesses. If somebody owned a Buick hobby business and the client base(under $150K) was under the same constant attack from increasing costs and lowered income as their own business was..., I'd think the obvious intellegent answer would be to wonder WHY is BIG business constantly needs more and more from the bottom while giving less and less from the top, only to produce lower profits and even losses? Your pride in independence may not like the truth but it's right in front of you! And the auto industry is a prime example of it. When foreign interests are allowed to compete in OUR market without levelling the playing field in the interests of OUR business and consumer markets WE LOSE!!!!!!! Japan, China et al. have socialized care and protected markets, yet they are being allowed unrestrained access to US. The direct result is that we are being forced as individuals and as Small Businesses, even big businesses with legacy costs, to compete with that which we cannot. You might not like Socialism, but it must be present in moderation to ensure that you and I, having a higher standard of living than these other countries are able to maintain this. Open your mind and REREAD THAT. It is NOT in our interests to continue the path we're on. I believe in a Strong America!!!! Succumbing to foreign economic interest's is NOT good for my country. You can point your finger at all the other things that have gone wrong o lead us where we are today. But the simple fact is that without industry, big and small, we are at the mercy of the Elite overlords. Failing to protect it is assinine!!!!