Gm loses almost 31B, HOW and WHY?

[GNBRETT]

it's time for socialized health care for all Americans.

Canada has that and you will wait for (6) hours to be seen for the flu or any other time you want to see the doctor.

People will resort to paying for their own doctor and the demand for doctors would go down and so would the quality of health care. I have no desire to pay for the millions of lazy azz people who don't want to work and desire free health care. Go out and get a f-ing job that has health care coverage or earn some money and pay for it yourself.

 

[chas52]

Gm Is A Healthcare Company That Makes Cars. Period!

 

[Rivical]

I don't care that others haven't mastered their health care systems. This is America, we can do it. Nationalize it! Eliminate ALL subsidies beyond the WIC program. We have tax ded. for child care. People need to use it! The fact is that not all are of the intellect to do more than factory(repetitive) work. Protect our people by protecting American Business. Alotta lazyazz people out there. But eliminating the total free ride is a necessity.

 

[rtviper]

If the solution is to get a job where health care is provided then you are looking for free health care. You want someone else to pay for your health care, your employer. If you dont want to rely on someone else to pay for it, be prepared to spend about 25 to 35k a year for coverage for your family.
Rivical hit it on the head the foreign companies dont allow us the same access to sales in their countries. We need some protectionism like they have.
Only problem is we are so dependent on their money to survive. We borrow about 1.5 billion a day from China so the Government can pay their bills.
You can scream Socialism all you want but some of it is needed. We should have learned that when left to their own devices the people in power play Robin Hood

 

[turbofish38]

Jeez-us people. Don't ya all read the papers anymore. Just this week the Japaneese PM was in DC begging us for help with the economy. What the heck does that have to do with GMs $31B loss? It aint the unions or health care that caused the problem. I've said it a million times. The reason Toyota,Honda and JapanInc make billions over the Big 3 is because the Japaneese Gov't devalues the Yen. If the yen was equal to the dollar than it would be the other way around. Now after 10 years or more of this charade, Japan is in deep Do-Do and running scared.

 

[86george]

Let'm eat their Hondas,Toyotas and Nisans.Let China eat its cheap exports.The Arabs can eat their oil.Who are they going to look to when they need food?They have screwed over are industries but they can't take our food supply.Food and drug industries are the only ones left that can export.Both are still the envy of the rest of the world.We may all wind up living in tar paper shacks but we'll have full bellies and viagra when we want it.

 

[JP112_89]

Finally...Someone who actually gets it...And just doesnt sit there and cry "The Union did it".

All union Contracts are negotiated with the Company,The union didnt force anything on GM or any other auto Manufacturer.Never heard anyone complain when Gm was raking in Tons of money,And sitting atop the auto Industry as #1 for so long...With the same Union workforce.

What happened to the auto industry is of there own doing...period.

Yup, Corporate Nazi's....

 

[WeAreVenom]

Let'em burn. It's the only way they'll learn.

 

[Rivical]

Let'em burn. It's the only way they'll learn.

I hate to keep beating this dead horse, but really. When they burn, where's our national mfg base? A couple tractor factories? Have you forgotten WWII? In time of world peril AMERICA'S huge mfg capabilities saved democracy for all. You think it won't come around again? COMMUNIST CHINA will help us fight tyranny this time? What?.......

1. level the marketplace
2. if you don't get it, you probably never have or will

 

[LSTTYPE]

I think most of you make good points. I am usually against nationalized health care, but if it would acutally help our industrys survive, then maybe its a good thing. On the subject of unions, I drive a UPS truck and work my self stupid 9-10 hours a day. Im union and proud that I am held accountable for every penny I make period. Cant wait for the day when someone starts lecturing me about the lazy/greedy union worker.

 

[nisnutz]

Its not our job to pay the big threes wages if you cant stand on your own you should fall!Chapter 11 shed the unions and retiree benefits come out stronger or get lost.I find it funny how you think america will fail as soon as you do, I guess throwing taxpayer money in the bottomless pit so you can get free retirement and healthcare makes more sense?One of my friends works at GM and made over 100k last year. I know this because he was crying around wondering where he could find a job at that same wage on a high school diploma once he gets laid off.

 

[Rivical]

Hey dude, If yer friend made $100K he's obviously in skilled trades. I don't disagree for one second that the trade programs are as wasteful as the bureaucracy of mgt. America won't FAIL without our industry. It'll be too weak to ever be it's own master again. Subjected to globalization. You can forget about your own retirement then too. Cuz we'll be forced into continued acceptance of less and less with no example of those who are still doing OK. (OH MY BAD, we'll just accept them as the "Ruling Class") People just don't understand what the unions do for the gen. population. And I'm probably not the best speaker for them as I'm basically conservative. Just with enough sense to know when other perspectives are also in my and others interests.

I believe ALL the big 3's problems could be cleared with one swipe of the arm. Level the playing field of business. Become just protective enough of American industry that it can compete against foreign trade while maintaining the American standard of living. None of us ever want a handout. Crappy trade policy set upon us by both POS political parties need to be changed or all will crumble. It's the percieved 'big dogs' that have to come down first is all. The wages/benefits that set the bar for everyone else and should be earned by significantly more than do, require a Strong Manufacturing based America. If we produce nothing significant then we're a piddly service economy. Nothing, a third world nation. Is That YOUR country? If so, Please take it somewhere else, I want mine Back!

 

[Woody]

I read not long ago that american employees working at toyota and folks working for the big three make roughly the same wage (including benefits) ....How long have Toyota, Honda, BMW, been building cars in the US? Not very long....Living in Tennesse, Alabama I know the cost of living in those states is considerabily lower than the industrialized north (Detriot), California, etc........Since "smelling the coffee" Gm has made considerable inroads in producing quality cars.........some that if I could afford I would certainly buy, but being retired and on a fixed income buying a new car is only a dream......
I personally think that instead of sinking billions into the auto industry the money should be given to the taxpayers......I guess you could call it a trickle up effect......If you were given $75,000 (single taxpayer, $100,000 for married taxpayers) would you not consider buying a new car, house, etc?? I know I would! And by me spending this money on repairing my house I would put at least 6 or 7 people back to work, and if I decided to buy a new car I possibly could help GM stay open awhile longer.........Until the government figures out we can compete in a global market I fear the US could be lost..........

 

[nisnutz]

"You can forget about your own retirement then too. Cuz we'll be forced into continued acceptance of less and less with no example of those who are still doing OK."



Wow you really think the rest of us look to you as an example of how to live our lives?What you have actually shown is when a group of guys get together ,Master a basic skill and threaten to quit everytime they dont get their way ,Can be overpaid get ridiculous benefits and to top it off convince the government to give them OUR money.Thanks for showing me the light brother

 

[nisnutz]

Oh and by the way I wont have anyone to blame for retirement but myself.Like most of the country I am responsible for my own. I'm guessing you soon will have to as well.Welcome to real life.

 

[rtviper]

I agree they are making similar income at all the plants but the huge debt load from previous employees retirement benefits is the difference. I don't see any way to get out from that debt other then bankruptcy. Is it fair, probably not but the unions like the company must both take the good with the bad. The former employees had a nice run but times have changed. When I signed up for health coverage and life insurance it was much cheaper then what it is today. I have had to make up for the difference in cost out of my own pocket. The costs have multiplied by ten.
The contracts agreed upon with the unions were based on costs from 30 and 40 years ago. Times have changed. My original costs are not Grandfathered in and maybe auto workers should not be either?
Maybe they should pay the increases incurred over the years

 

[Rivical]

"You can forget about your own retirement then too. Cuz we'll be forced into continued acceptance of less and less with no example of those who are still doing OK.":

Admittedly I cut out too much of the point there as I'm long winded enough in each post. ASSuming you're pretty young, my point was that saving Anything for retirement will become increasingly difficult for a society in decline. If you're already pretty close and have done a good job saving you'll obviously be affected later, but pretty much about the same time as others. Rising costs hit those on fixed incomes the hardest.

"
Wow you really think the rest of us look to you as an example of how to live our lives?What you have actually shown is when a group of guys get together ,Master a basic skill and threaten to quit everytime they dont get their way ,Can be overpaid get ridiculous benefits and to top it off convince the government to give them OUR money.Thanks for showing me the light brother

I wish the UAW had it's own bully pulpit so people know just what's been happening and not just the sensationalist 'reporting' intended to anger them. We Can't strike for some time now. If you recall a UAW strike you'd be retired by now. Those were different times and conditions. Our pay has only maintained according to actual inflation. We've actually given away everything we'd negotiated over that. Given it back to the companies already, and some has been specifically earmarked as support for current retiree's. We help our own. Our current benefits package is no better than anybody elses. I wish you all could believe that. IT'S TRUE! It sucks but that's life, we used to have the best damned benefits!

Last, hopefully the lasts I'll be inclined to add, I apologize for some of my prickishness or obnoxiousness in trying to make the point that neither are we, or organized labor or American Industry the enemy of 'The People'. I really wish you good folks had been as irate about NAFTA, and every other trade agreement and political policy that has led to this sad day for our country. I assure you that I don't want your money. You saw in FORD's example that The Auto Industry doesn't want to take the money. HAS EVERYONE MISSED THE FACT THAT THEY ARE INTEREST ACCUMULATING LOANS? NOT THE FREE MONEY THE BANKERS GET?


All we Really want is trade policies that are fair to maintaining the American standard of living. That's not just for the Big3, it's for Everybody. Without that change, not just the fall of auto industry, then we will experience the diminishing returns of decline as a whole society. It's so far gone after 15yrs of this, that we need a kick start. Without the change in policy though, it's a waste of time and the companies should just go bankrupt. Mark my words, that would be worse for the USA than loaning some money.


"We may all wind up living in tar paper shacks but we'll have full bellies and viagra when we want it."----You RULE George!!! THAT was funny!!!!!

 

[19TTA89]

The contracts agreed upon with the unions were based on costs from 30 and 40 years ago. Times have changed. My original costs are not Grandfathered in and maybe auto workers should not be either?
Maybe they should pay the increases incurred over the years

The contract does not go back that long....That would be way too easy an excuse to let Gm off the hook,Well...30 or 40 years ago they didnt know what would happen.

Truth is....They buried themselves...The contract is negotiated every 4 years,There problem is not from something that came back to bite them from way in the past,It is from only 4 years ago..When some GM exec put his name on the dotted line.


How about some other reasons why Gm went into the toilet...

How about lawsuits...
1... California Car Accident Lawyers - California Personal Injury Blog | Major General Motors Class Action Lawsuit to Settle

2... GM Settles 297 Lawsuits - Crashworthiness


3... GM Loses $100M Lawsuit - Saturn Transmission - Topix

4... Abstracts: GM lawsuits pile up in Philly; despite slamming NBC. GM settlement praised, opposed. GM settles suits; turmoil remains; plaintiffs say automaker hides truth about trucks

5... can only imagine how much this one will cost them.. G.M. Nears Settlement In Lawsuit Over Lending - New York Times

6.. Its gotta be great when your own shareholders sue you for 277 million lol... GM Forks Over $277m in Shareholder Lawsuit. Second Case Simmers | The Truth About Cars

The cost to close Oldsmobile was around 2BILLION dollars after settling all the lawsuits with the dealerships.

there are so many lawsuits they pay on you could write all day long..

How about recalls...Thats gotta cost some money,I believe GM just keeps setting and resetting the record for the largest recalls...Good way to do business,Wonder why they are failing..

10.5 million vehicles recalled in the 04 calender year alone.. Auto recalls reach record high this year | The Michigan Daily

how about another 2 million..actually turned to 4 million when they were done.. Automobile Recalls - Sports Utility Vehicles (SUVs) - Recalls, Warnings, & Alerts

Another 2 million in 07.. General Motors recalls more than 2 million vehicles - DominicanToday.com

How can you make a profit when you are spending money hand over fist to recall millions upon millions of cars...Every single year?Thats just the tip of the iceberg,You could list major recalls on GM 20 pages long.

How about great business ventures?

Hmm...lets spend 2.4BILLION to acquire some Fiat stock...Then lose our shirts,Then Pay Fiat another 2BILLION so we can get out of out of a deal to acquire Fiats car division...Thats 4.4 Billion...Spent very wisely.. GM paying Fiat $2 billion to avoid taking over its auto unit - International Herald Tribune

Lets look at Saab...Another gem for Gm...Has never turned a profit in the 20 years that Gm has owned them,Wonder how many BILLIONS that cost the general over the years,Yup..Great way of doing business.. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/21/business/worldbusiness/21saab.html?_r=1&em

How about the VOLT...not even released yet,And already they know they are going to lose there shirts on that one also. GM: We'll Lose Our Shirts on the Volt, But That's OK | Autopia from Wired.com

Now...lets go on to Opel..Another company which Gm has a big stake in,They only lost 1.9 BILLION in 2008...And are begging to get away from Gm... Fighting for Their Lives: Thousands of Opel Workers Demonstrate against GM - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

How about all the money paid out in lawsuits against GMAC?Not including the money they have also lost

But remember...it is all the unions fault..:biggrin:

Gm's demise in my opinion stems from years and years of bad Business...record recalls...Record lawsuits...And a recent economy that will not let them get away with it anymore.

and Im afraid anything from this point on is too little too late.

 

[rtviper]

We can go back in time and find all the f-ckups GM has been involved in, but we forget about the original ?. Why does GM lose 30 billion and sell the same number of cars as Toyota. The answer is still their 70 billion yearly obligation to retired employees. Yes the retired employees are covered because of the contracts they were under 30 and 40 years ago even 50 years ago. Union contracts are changing yes but the retired employees are paid per their contracts they worked under. Changing contracts every 4 years doesn't change the retirement package retired personal are governed by.
Their cost per car built is about $3500.00 higher because of the debt load for retires employees. Toyota has about 250 million debt.

 

[19TTA89]

Signing a new contract every 4 years gave GM plenty of opportunity to put a stop to the way the Pension/Benefits package was done. PSE&G...a local utility stopped the pension...Period in 1996...They now use a cash balance plan.

So...add there horrid negotiating skills to the above blunders and there you have it.

Nobody to blame but themselves.

GM was in big trouble in 2006...Didnt stop Rick Wagoner from giving himself a raise from 9 million to 15.6 million in 2007...he must of thought he did a great job that year..

in comparison...I dont think you will find any ceo of Honda/Toyota/Nissan...making over 1million a yr.