Have a question about the GN block!

[Silver97Camaro]

Hi guys! I have been thinking about trying to use the ideas from the GN to make a bad 3.8L for my V-6 Camaro. Well, the topic about the GN has been brought up many times at CamaroV6.com and people have said that its harder to put a turbo on our cars because of space. Which I do understand. But the reason they give for the tightness in our cars is that the GN 3.8L is a 60 degree. Is this true? I mean I know the 3.4L V-6 that's was an option in the Camaros in 1993-1994 were 60 degree. But I thought the 3.8L in the 1995-present Camaros were 90 degree engines. I also thought that all the 3.8L blocks were basically the same. Not the same in the internals but the block I always thought was the same. Thanks for the help.

 

[cool 84]

They're all 90 degree motors. They're pretty wide from head to head, wider than a smallblock I think. To fit in the F-body they had to use the FWD heads. Considering it's been done by the factory and there are turbo kits for the V8s I think you could overcome the space issue.

 

[Intercooler]

Just wondering why you didn't opt for the V8 mill in the first place No work would be involved and $$ it would make more sense. Like buying a four cylinder Mustang and converting it to a V8 Should have just started with the V8 IMO.

 

[Silver97Camaro]

Well, I agree 100% with you Intercooler. But between insurance (being only 18) and extra gas I just didn't want it. I mean its not going to be a car that I really race much. That's what I have my 1969 Camaro for. I mean you can't beat the power of 427 big block and I have a 502 that I'm in the process of building to put in it. I just wanted to have a "quick" street car. Nothing really killer just better than stock and I figured I would go supercharger or turbo. I mean the girls love a car that looks good and goes fast. So since the 1969 is just for the track I figured I needed to do something with the street Camaro. But like I said before I do agree 100%. I love the way the V-8 sounds and runs in stock form. Just couldn't have the race car and an 8 on the street so I have my 6 shooter. But hell you don't mess with a well done 6. I mean the GN is a PERFECT example!

 

[Sleeper87]

But hell you don't mess with a well done 6. I mean the GN is a PERFECT example!

I couldnt have said it any better....
Sleeper87

 

[GNVAIR]

If you know how to build a 9 second Camaro, then you should be able to figure out the plumbing issues of putting a turbo onto a V6. Be forewarned, you said you were worried about gas consumption.......adding a turbo will definitely put a kink in that.

 

[Silver97Camaro]

If you know how to build a 9 second Camaro, then you should be able to figure out the plumbing issues of putting a turbo onto a V6. Be forewarned, you said you were worried about gas consumption.......adding a turbo will definitely put a kink in that. By: GNVAIR

VERY true!!!
I would keep a mild set up though so hopefully I don't effect the gas to much. I'm actually excited about trying to build a turbo motor. I've never done it before. Looks like I'm going to have to talk to many of the GN guys at the car shows. I have another question if you guys don't mind. What did the GN get for gas mileage when stock? Because a stock set up from a GN would make my car fly. I would think that I have to be lighter in weight. But even if I'm not I would love to just run what a stock GN runs for the street.

 

[BLACK6PACK]

The GNs get anywhere from 20-27mpg. Average I would say is 23-25mpg.

It costs a fortune to build a turbo motor. All said and done your looking at between 3500-7000 for a rebuild on the GN. If you are wanting to turn your chebby into a turbo car, then expect to pay more. First of all, I don't know of any computer software that would let you run a turbo on your v-6 unless you went to DFI ($2500). Then you have to look at custom intake and exhaust (big $$$). You would also have to tear down the entire engine to put durable parts in it. As well as lowering the compression so that you could run reasonable boost. Or you could just slap a turbo kit on there and blow it up, like all the guys that put the kits on their LT1s and LS1s.

 

[Silver97Camaro]

Yeah if I went with a turbo or a supercharger for that matter I would without a doubt look into building the motor up. GM says that the 3.8L series II is only good for about 6lbs. of boost without an intercooler to be safe. You can get away with 9lbs. but they said that would be really pushing the life of the engine unless I had an intercooler. There is without a doubt no way I could push the kind of boost a GN can without a buildup. There is a kit that is supposed to come out in July 2002 from ATI for my car that will run something like 5-15lbs. of boost (with an intercooler from what I understand if you want to run the high boost). They say it will be safe for a stock 3.8L series II, but it is still in testing. They have like 15 or 20 guys that are going to have the kit on there car for at least a year. Then the car will go though a tare down to see if it has done any damage. The testing/inspection should be done by July they said when I e-mail them. But I guess will see if its done when July come around. Now that would be a cool birthday present. I know that you guys have turbos on your cars. But what do you all think about the kit from ATI? Here is the link to the ATI kit.. If you guys don't mind maybe you could take a look at the kit and give me your opinion. Thanks a lot for the help and information about the GN everyone.

 

[AsphaltAnihil8r]

Originally posted by Silver97Camaro
Yeah if I went with a turbo or a supercharger for that matter I would without a doubt look into building the motor up. GM says that the 3.8L series II is only good for about 6lbs. of boost without an intercooler to be safe. You can get away with 9lbs. but they said that would be really pushing the life of the engine unless I had an intercooler. There is without a doubt no way I could push the kind of boost a GN can without a buildup. There is a kit that is supposed to come out in July 2002 from ATI for my car that will run something like 5-15lbs. of boost (with an intercooler from what I understand if you want to run the high boost). They say it will be safe for a stock 3.8L series II, but it is still in testing. They have like 15 or 20 guys that are going to have the kit on there car for at least a year. Then the car will go though a tare down to see if it has done any damage. The testing/inspection should be done by July they said when I e-mail them. But I guess will see if its done when July come around. Now that would be a cool birthday present. I know that you guys have turbos on your cars. But what do you all think about the kit from ATI? Here is the link to the ATI kit.. If you guys don't mind maybe you could take a look at the kit and give me your opinion. Thanks a lot for the help and information about the GN everyone.

S97C,,that's cool
Do you know if anyone does a kit for the Chevy 4.3 1996 Blazer motors,,I need to make a baby Typhoon

 

[gnx7]

Silver97Camaro-

Not trying to tell you what to do.... and I understand the insurance fiasco with being 18...... but you must have too much money to want to drop $3-5K on modifying the 3.8i V6 your Camaro came with and still probably only run low 14's or high 13's?

-First of all the crank/rods/pistons in the factory Chevy V6 weren't designed for forced induction. So more than likely you may pop your motor in the quest for more power.

-Second of all the 10bolt rear diff's in the V6 and V8 Camaros/Firechickens were garbage and even stock LT1's/LS1's break the axles/ring and pinions etc with slicks! So to upgrade to a 12 bolt you are looking at $2K where a failure with the upgrades you propose to make could be a reality.

-Last but not least when you add up the total costs you still have a 13 second car that you just dumped $5-8K+ in depending upon who does the labor! When you sell the car don't expect to get much of that back.

Why not just upgrade the rear differential gears and put an exhaust system on the car and be done with it! You have a 9 second car that does 140 already man...! At 18 I wish I had a car like that. Most girls I know don't really enjoy being in fast cars when our testerone takes over and we drive like madmen. Trust me... the more you show off in your car with girls in it..... the less likely they'll get back in. I think there is a direct relationship between getting laid and driving like a hotrodder.... and it isn't what we all wish!

A fast car IMO is 12 seconds or faster in the 1/4. Be happy with your '69..... or drop in a Buick GN engine in the '97 Maro. I know someone in FL selling a complete GN engine/tranny if you are interested in doing it right. But then again... you'll be dropping some $$$. Probably only slightly more than doing the ATi upgrade
.... but you'll get twice the power . mid/high 11 second Camaro with near stock GN driveline is very easy to do.

GNX7

 

[Silver97Camaro]

You have a 9 second car that does 140 already man...! At 18 I wish I had a car like that.

You have no idea how many times I have heard that. And I do have to agree with you gnx7. I am luck to have a car that runs like my 1969 does. Even though its not street legal. Not that it really matters because even if it was street legal it wouldn't see much more than a Saturday night cruise at Old Town down here in Kissimmee, FL. Then again I don't know if I would want to drive all the way from my house to Kissimmee. That would be a lot on gas with that car. I would love to find a GN motor and run it stock I mean like you said it would make my car fly. In fact there was a guy that had a 1993 Formula Firebird and blew the V-8 up with N2O. So he decided he wanted to put a GN motor in since he has so much experience with the 3.8L turbo. Well, to make a long story short he put the motor in and with a well set up motor on 20lbs. of boost for the track he ran a 10.3x in the 1/4 with slicks and the stock 10-bolt with 3.23 gears. He was in the GM High Tech Magazine awhile back. Now that is KILLER! Not that I would want my car to run that fast but a low 13 mid 12 would be nice for what I want. I mean its only for the street and playing around with the guys from work and school (they wont race me in the 1969 for some odd reason). They keep saying to me, "That's not even a far race man!" I wonder why they say that I mean they do have Mustangs. Then I remember what I just said....they have Mustangs!!! Then everything makes sense! Al I can say is that the Stang guys around where I live are funny. I mean there is a guy I know that says he is going to run 10:1 compression with 15-20lbs. of boost on the stock bottom end on his 302ci. Now in my opinion that's CRAZY! How much does that guy you know in Florida want for his GN motor and what all does he have to sell? I'm not really looking to buy right now (all my money I had saved up went into the new 502ci for the '69). But I would like to start pricing out something's. I also saw in my new GM High Tech Magazine that there is a guy that can build up a 3.8L (GN motor) to hold just about what ever I wanted to through at it (with in reason) for like $3400.xx. Now I would have to get a block in order to get that price. He only upgrades and assembles the rotating assembly, oiling, and bearings. Oh the short block also comes with a custom grind cam. Are the blocks in the Camaros and the GNs the same I mean they are both 90 degree so are they the same just different (stronger) rotating assembly?

 

[Silver97Camaro]

Oh I forgot to say in my last post...I'm not sure who makes anything for the 4.3L AsphaltAnihil8r. I'm sure there has to be someone out there that either makes a kit or has a kit that could be adapted without to much problem. Hey if you find anything though keep me posted if you wouldn't mind. My friend wants to do something like that to his and so does a girl I know. Hope you find something that can be adapted.

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

sounds like you need to sell the marrow and get an 89 turbo trans am

 

[GNVAIR]

The blocks are not the same. The GN used the RWD design block which was last produced in 1989 for the TTAs. The 3800 in your F body is a Series2 engine which although similar, shares no common parts. The and the guy you were referring to that blew up the LT1 in his 93 Firebird was a friend of Steve Kaminski who is a local up here. Everyone thinks that its such an easy swap, but when you consider the labor PLUS all the parts involved in that swap, you will soon realize that you could almost buy 2 V6 powered late model F bodies with that money.
Steve's labor is not cheap. Plus he installed a freshly rebuilt engine ($4000+ the cost of a good engine core which could easily be another $1500), plus rebuilding/upgrading the transmission ($2000+), Installed DFI ($1,000+) and then all the other miscellaneous b.s. such as exhaust, intercooler, turbo, fuel system upgrades, etc.
It adds up very quickly. Plan on having a good $6,000 plus into it before it even moves under its own power.
Its a much easier swap into a 82-92 F body as there are already existing pieces that could be collected and used. Plus the wiring harness for a TTA plugs right into the dash harness of a TPI car if you start with 1 of them. But unless someone gives you stuff for free, it is still not a cheap or quick engine swap. If the car is your only form of transportation, then you could be in for some heartaches as it definitely not for an amature.

 

[Berman]

My opinion on magazine times... they're BS. How do I know? My good friend owns a performance shop in south florida (Route 66 Performance) and has had magazine cars where he sent the timeslip, and they printed a FASTER time in the magazine. Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords did that.

Why? I have no idea. They did do it though. And that guy you're talking about from GMHTP, I don't believe his times, I'm sorry. An f-body is almost as heavy as a GN anyway, and he just doesn't have all the parts to be running that fast (or he's got the best tuner in the world and I want to bring my car to that guy)

 

[Berman]

If you really want to do this, here's my suggestion: sell the Camaro. Buy a shell of a Camaro (theft recovery or something, you can find 'em), because you'll need the rest of the money to build the GN engine (very $$$, it ain't a small block chevy) and do the conversion. Or buy an earlier f-body, the factory made TTA's, you should be able to get the TTA wiring harness and it should go in easily. Also if you've looked under the hoods of a current camaro and a previous generation camaro, it should be pretty obvious which one you'd rather work on (unless you're a masochist). Ever change the spark plugs on a LS1? I'd love to meet the engineer who designed those spiky bolts on top of the coil packs in a dark alley..

 

[Silver97Camaro]

Man looks like I'm going to have to think more about this before I decide what I want to do. I mean with that kind of money I could put an LT4 in my car like I really wanted to in the first place. Good buy insurance and gas mileage though. Man I really want this car to be fast. I mean there is a guy at Camarov6.com named Magnus. Now he does have a good amount of stuff done...but...he has run a best of 13.8x on all motor! That is with his new cam and heads from SuperSixMotorSports though and his ECM acting up. He was only getting at best 20 degrees advance when he should be at about 36. Plus his air fuel ratios have to be off with the new cam and heads. That's one thing I dislike about the 4th gen F-body. They are very dependent on the computer and don't like changes without telling the ECM. With the 100shot of N2O he went 12.3x without the heads and cam. Everyone feels he'll be high 11's with the N2O once he gets the ECM right. I mean when he ran the N2O he was only running a 14.0-14.3 on motor. Oh well I really appreciate the help everyone.

 

[Berman]

Originally posted by Silver97Camaro
Now he does have a good amount of stuff done...but...he has run a best of 13.8x on all motor! That is with his new cam and heads from SuperSixMotorSports though and his ECM acting up. He was only getting at best 20 degrees advance when he should be at about 36. Plus his air fuel ratios have to be off with the new cam and heads. That's one thing I dislike about the 4th gen F-body. They are very dependent on the computer and don't like changes without telling the ECM. With the 100shot of N2O he went 12.3x without the heads and cam. Everyone feels he'll be high 11's with the N2O once he gets the ECM right. I mean when he ran the N2O he was only running a 14.0-14.3 on motor. Oh well I really appreciate the help everyone.

13.8. Wow!! (sense the sarcasm?) My Trans-Am went 13.5 @ 106 with a 2.3 sixty foot, bone stock.

Point is it's way too costly to go fast in the six-banger camaro. At least to me.

 

[Silver97Camaro]

Point is it's way too costly to go fast in the six-banger camaro. At least to me.

Well, I have heard the same thing about the GN from guys because its a six and not cheap to build. But I don't go along with that. I feel the only way to go fast is with an all motor big block. To just have a "quick" daily driver a six does just fine.