Head/Cam work??

[chicagoTTA]

Hello All,

First, thank you for all your help so far. I'm new to the Turbo 6 community. I'm from the old school "there's no replacement for displacement". Maybe you've heard of it.

However, after owning and driving a TTA, I am sold. Amazed even . By FAR the greatest TA I've ever owned (and I've had 5!!). 5.0 GTA's. 5.7 GTA's... The only thing great (comparitively) was the sound. But I got used to the T-6 sound. Almost exotic.

This is the best car I've ever owned. I've had 911 RUF turbo's, and some high priced other "exotic" toys. You know what? They suck compared to this car. Nostalgia, Bang for the buck... Nothing beats this car.

BUT I want more low end.

My issue is this:

I would like to boost the bottom end. Meaning, head/cam work, etc. I WILL be going with a bigger turbo/injectors/etc. But, would like a little more muscle BEFORE the turbo spools. What do I do??

What is the most reliable and streetable cam? I plan on DRIVING this car. It's not just for 1/4 timeslips. I want street muscle.

I plan on Head/Cam work. But don't want a 'stage' motor. I want streetability and drivability.

What should I do??

Please, know my options are open. Plenum/TB, Head/Cam... whatever I need for my FIRST stage. I plan on upgrading DP, Turbo, Injectors, Exhaust and such after this, so all my mods build upon each other.

Since I'm so new, DETAILED descriptions (vendor, specs, website, etc) is what I need.

Help!!!!

Michael

 

[LV GN]

heres a good place to start--http://gnttype.org/techarea/recipes/recipepage.html

check out the whole web site it has great info. also many vendors on the vendors list--i like(in no order) atr,ramchargers,hr parts n stuff, cottons---you need to up grade fuel pump, injectors,exhaust,air intake before doing anything else -- good luck

 

[chicagoTTA]

Thank you, but all the 'recipes' lead me to the same selection page. None of them work... ????

Ugh.

 

[LV GN]

i just tryed them again and worked fine for me

 

[chicagoTTA]

Thanks...

After going thru the home page and it's menu's, I got it to work.

But since the TTA's specifics, any other suggestions/proven combos?

 

[DCVING 6]

I take it by your name your in Chicago? Join the club... seriously.

http://www.chicagolandbuick.org/

It is loads of fun. Everyone is willing to help.

 

[TT/Ameasap]

Upgrade fuel pump, injectors ...get adjustable fuel pressure regulator, adj. waste gate and a good chip. Throw alky in the mix and you have yourself a screaming (street/strip) combo for very little money.

Walboro 340 pump-$100
MSD 50#hr Inj.-$300
AFPR-$100
lots of good chips-$75
(DIY) Alky-$250
AWG-$75


Lots of free mods also.


That should get things started

 

[trophystock]

do you want killer off boost performance and instant tire smoke off the line? go to the tranny section and ask everybody how much of a difference a good converter made in there cars. I have yet to make one change to my car (owned it a whole two weeks) but a converter will be the very first thing. There is no better upgrade for an auto car then that.

 

[Razor]

Dont need a converter with a stock turbo.

First thing is diagnostic tool..scanmaster as the first line of defense. Direct scan for fine tuning and chip burning..or if you have $$$ get the Felpro.

You knock this little v6..get ready to replace the crank and bearings. Its just how it is. Its a turbo car..it will always have some sort of lag.

You didnt specify how much RWHP your looking to get and what are you willing to give up to get it.

Lastly..seat time..learn to drive the car and make single changes to correllate track performance. Dyno's dont work on these cars for tuning.. You throw a lot of mods at the car, you will endup will a 14 second TTA that no one will be able to un*uck

Leave the motor alone..do the other stuff..stock TTA motor will get you into the 11 second 1/4 mile range no problemo.

Mine does all the time..like clock work..no majic..just a little attention. And is stock from the intercooler, throttle body, cam, heads, intake, suspension,ignition, etc...

HTH..you have a lot of reading to do..

 

[mark b]

If you want the same feeling as a big-block with "instant" low end power, I think you need to optimize the turbo/converter combo to get close. Ironically, many TR people found they didn't like breaking the tires loose every time they touched the gas and changed their combo after that.

If you actually rebuild the motor, billet caps with ARP studs, etc. are definitely the way to go. A girdle would be nice but it won't fit in the TTA crossmember area easily.

BTW - there has been a discussion for years that running slightly higher CR and less boost is more responsive on the street. I don't know if I would actually replace the TTA pistons, but if you do a full rebuild with new forged pistons, this is a consideration.

To Razors point.... I think it depends on if you want to be fast or feel fast TTA's and TR's can go plenty fast with little mods, but they don't feel the same as normally aspirated cars IMHO.

 

[Lee_Burough]

Welcome

Read the entire thread in the TTA FAQ list about "The Best Bang For the Buck"

Its a place to start. It cites a lot of good experience from people who have been there and done that. Will save you time and money.

Some important things for normally asparated engines are not important any more when you tune a TTA. Try to see a picture where you tune what you already have. There are many people who just bolt on things and put cams , throttle bodies, pistons, DP, etc. (like Razor inferred) and still go 12-14 seconds in a quarter mile -or, in your case, the street. If you don't want to be one of those guys, read and heed the info here and GNTTYPE.org.

I chose this recipe: Scan tool, Fuel pump, Power Plate (evens air flow to the cylinders), larger injectors, larger turbo, MAF translator plus, extender chip and stock FPR. Should be capable of high 11's low 12's. On the street, that is impressive 99.9% of the time After that, you can rework the tranny and converter, fan switches, lock-up switch, VALVE SPRINGS, and get some street legal slicks.

The engine is detuned for public use, so, if you retune it, you'll be fast enough. The Ultra flow muffler will satisfy your need for a good sound with this engine

HTH

 

[chicagoTTA]

Razor, Iburou...

Thanks 6 million for your insight. I actually do read most of the links you point me to. Somehow, I find (for me anyway) they raise more Q's for me than anything. But they're invaluable for advice and resource.

I think my main thing is that I miss the instant tire-smoking torque of the 5.7s. That said though, again, this is by far the best TA I've owned.

I've heard of the RJC Power Plate. From what (little) I understand of it, it evens the air flow problem to the back 2 cylinders. Is that a performance thing, or a tuning issue?

I really don't want to pull the engine apart (and likely never will). But thought that (as is true with NA cars) that a head/cam package would do wonders. Sounds like that's not all too true?? As for a target RWHP #, none in mind really. Because that HP can all be achieved with more boost in the upper RPM band. I was hoping to move some HP to pre-turbo area.

I certainly want to go forward with:

PT-51 turbo (ball bearings if poss)
Bigger Inj
Fuel Pump /hotwired
DP w/Test
Cross-flow muffler
Poly Motor mounts (since I'm under there, why not? It'll help with DP clearance right?)
AFPR
Power Plate
Sold MAF pipe with K&N
Cust chip for the above

But I thought maybe there were ways to boost performance before the turbo spools. I have heard and read ideas for TC, but don't really understand what that would really do for me. Just my ignorance on the subject really.

Thanks once again.

 

[1badTTA]

Ironically I probably have exactly what you are looking for. I have the TRW forged pistons for a GN in mine which brings the compression up a little (about 9.3:1) and gives better response when not under boost.

I really wouldn't suggest doing it unless you have to. I did it because any pistons for a TTA will run you around $600 but you can get the GN TRW's for about $250.

As for the "Heads and Cam" idea, you are still thinking V8. The heads will help with flow but all they do is allow more air to flow through the engine. With these turbo V6's you can do the same thing much easier and cheaper without even taking the heads off.

The torque converter will probably give you the feel you want. What it does is allows the engine to rev higher to build boost quicker.

You need to take care of getting the basics before you start doing any major mods. A scan tool and fuel system upgrades should be first.

 

[chicagoTTA]

Thanks all again.

In the interest of not beating a dead horse, I will start with the basics and move from there. Although it looks like I should add a TC to my list that will work in conjunction with the bigger turbo.

It seems everyone agrees that's how to approach it and so that's what I'll do.

I will be dyno-ing the car before ANY mods, and at certain steps along the way. I'll be sure to report the results!

Thanks again.

 

[mark b]

There is a lot of technical discussion in this archive and also ww.gnttype.org about heads and a turbo application. Suffice to say there are many opinions about how heads can help a turbo spool.....

 

[postal]

Your ass backwards man. These cars are low end torque monsters. Hp is a function of torque. The lower the rpm you make your Hp at the higher the torque is. If you go to things like heads and cam your going to shift your Hp curve up in the rpm range. You will probably make more torque also but it will be shifted up in rpms too. This would be the oposite of what you wanted to do.

Your new to the turbo cars so my advice is to **** can evey thing youve been learning about how to make V8 non turbo cars go faster. Some of the stuff caries over but the effects or order to do them in wont be the same. For example what NA V8 anything has changing the fuel pump at the VERY top of the to do list?

I say your original question should be how do I make my car more responsive on the street?

The answere would be to build more boost quicker. This will do two things for you. If you hit higher boost at a lower rpm the torque will be bumped up a good bit. The faster the boost comes in the more responsive the car feels. Now there are a couple things that will help to spool the turbo faster and give you more TOP end power. That would be an upgraded turbo (not to big of one) and a good exhaust system that would include a new down pipe. Throw in a properly matched convertor, and an alky injection kit. You'll crap your pants when you see how hard your running on pump gas.

Do all the normal small stuff listed in the posts above. Dont skip that stuff it has to be done. Dont skip the scantool part either. When ever you try to make alot of power out of a relatively small motor, tuning is going to be absolutely crucial. Mess around with some of the bolt on stuff learn how to make the car run hard with it then open up the motor if you still want to. By the time you get to the point that your ready to get into the motor you will already be required to have a cage in the car to run at the track. Keep this in mind that when they're yelling at you to put a cage in it. You're running in the 11's in a 3500 pound car and your shifting the motor at 5000 rpms........You aint building big Hp numbers......Your building butt loads of torque!

HTH: Jason

BTW: ask Razor what his 11.60 pump gas TTA feels like on the street. That or you could ask me what my B-pillars look like after yanking the drivers side front tire a foot or so in the air a few times......Theres ALOT of torque to be had from a stock long block. There are more than just a couple of guys doing it also.

 

[chicagoTTA]

Jason, you da man.

You make complete sense. As I said, I'd rather NOT open the motor. And you ALL are right, I am thinking strictly V8 here. I see that the 'old' rules don't really apply.

Again, for the most part, you all seem to agree:

1) Start drinking
2) Complete my above list of Mods
3) Keep drinking
4) Get some A$$ dyno time
5) re-address my goals if necessary
6) Start drinking

But seriously folks, I don't care where I get the bottom end response. If it's from higher boost/quicker spool time -OR- low end oomph. Seems like the former will get me to where I want to be.

On the subject of Torque Converter, where should I look towards for stall speed and buying such a beast? Considering I'm somewhat sold on a ball-bearing (hopefully to reduce lag time) t-51... Again, for STREET use only...

Anything I've missed (besides therapy and heavy meds) ?

Y'all rock!

Michael

BTW, the "bang for the buck" thread (which I read many times) seemed to be more of an argument than an agreed upon recipie... so that's why I originally posted. I do my best to research BEFORE posting!!

 

[mark b]

If you are serious about the ball-bearing option, you can run more turbo/less converter. I'd be looking at a bigger if you are going to do the converter and BB turbo.

I'd talk to Jack Cotton about that. He's got some great experience with all kinds of street and race combos with the ball-bearing turbos. I've seen 2 '65 combos that will rip your eyelashes off and a few bigger than that which were very streetable.

Just my .02

 

[postal]

the "bang for the buck" thread (which I read many times) seemed to be more of an argument than an agreed upon recipie

Give up now and run far far away if your looking for a forum where most people agree most of the time. Guys will get on here a pick apart every single mod to do to these cars. Even if they agree that a particular part needs to be upgraded they will then all argue on which particular replacement to get. You'll find me right in the mix with them.

What I do is just try to read there reasonings behind why this or why that. I also like to do some researching off of this board. There is alot of good turbo stuff to read up on. There are also a crap load of dumb asses out there. I bought a book on turbocharging off of Ebay that some turbo guru wrote. He was into turbo studebackers and he was stating over and over again how you cant run more than 15#'s of boost with fuel injection. He was talking with race gas even! what a F'n idiot . How many people out there getting steared ass backwards because of goofs like that??? This board is like the net: some damn smart, alot in the middle , and some damn dip sticks. Good luck figureing out whos who .

HTH: Jason a.k.a THE DIP STICK!

 

[TTA89]

Don't listen to these guys. You need to really spend some money to make these cars move out of the 13s.

Your first mods should be better headers and like a 224/224 cam with a 4000 stall and a THDP, Thats worth 40hp alone! The Stock turbo SUCKS, that won't even get you out of the 13s. You said you want a PT51? I heard you can run 12.80s-12.90s sometimes but if you really want some bottom end order up a PT88. Quick Spool, Great street response and should net you high 11s if your lucky.

The stock injectors are worthless, again if you want to get out of the 13s you need to order 83s right away.


The trannys are pretty weak but should hold up for a few passes, they really like to shift early at like 5000rpm. Thats no good for power. You wanna be buzzin these things at 6500-6700rpm with that cam.

I heard some guy on here went like 11.80s and said he used all the stock parts but he is full of crap, I mean he didn't even have a THDP or a Convertor in that car. Can you image that? 11.80s on the Stock Turbo, Injectors, Intercooler, Downpipe, Convertor, Long Block ect? Pppft.. Not possible.


Good luck!