Help! Bad turbo seal...or something else?

[87-WE2]

Looking for a little help guys. A few pertinent things to tell you about that aren't in my sig. About a year ago I replaced the plugs with Autolite 23's, plug wires with High Boost wires (8.5mm I think), and the coil pack with an AC Delco Chinese coil . Had fuel pressure problems recently, so I decided to change pump and convert to E85. I now have 2x255 Walbro's, but I'm only running one for now until I go bigger. FP is keeping up with boost fine - I've been obsessed with it since I found my bad pump. Somewhere in there I also installed Comp 980's and an RJC Power Plate. (Note: when I did that, I noticed some oil going into the TB from the PCV, which I understand is pretty normal. I plan to put a catch can on there soon to keep the oil out of combustion chambers.)

So anyway a few weeks ago, I went to the track to see how all this played out in ET and MPH. I was pleasantly rewarded with improved times of 12.87 and about 104 mph. Zero knock. 22PSI boost. Stock turbo and IC. I only drive the car occasionally, so about a week after the trip to the track, I was cruising around at night and notice a couple of puffs of white smoke out the DS tailpipe at a light. I thought "I have GOT to get that catch can installed". Next time out about a week later, same thing only a little worse PLUS I also noticed a smell of burned oil PLUS I noticed my boost at WOT was down to about 19 PSI. I pulled over and checked the RJC Boost controller & it was still screwed all the way in. I thought this was weird so I took it apart and stretched the spring a TINY bit (also noticed some oil on the ball inside it). Got back on the road and back to about 22PSI. Still smoking at lights. Still thinking to myself about the catch can.

Fast forward to tonight. I take the car out and smoke still there (as I expected, it has not healed) at idle and sometimes I noticed it at low speed. I can't get boost to stay above 18 PSI. I switched pumps over to the "other" one in my double pumper system. Same deal - 17-18 PSI. O2's are OK - no knock, but car feels very weak since it's not developing the boost. Checked the oil and it's NOT milky. Any help on possibilities? My thoughts are below.

As far as SMOKE goes:
1) Turbo seal is bad. I think this because it's a stock turbo, I been running it at 22PSI, I found oil in the boost controller, and smoke out the tail pipes. I have not pulled any hoses off post-turbo to look for any oil. However, I'm thinking that any oil that is going into the compressor side will collect in the stock IC - basically making my IC the "catch can". How could oil go UPHILL into the TB.

2) Super bad PCV? Thinking about it now it really doesn't make sense. I'm just brainstorming I guess.

3) Rings or valve seals. When I changed out the valve springs, I was told by a couple of VERY well-known mechanics on here to just leave the seals alone. I didn't mess with them. I sure hope it's not rings. Any suggesstions?


As far as loosing boost pressure (I'm really stumped here):
1)Will a bad oil seal in the turbo cause an inability to build boost? I wouldn't think so. I had already decided I was going to get a new turbo anyway as I've maxed out the stocker. I don't think buying a new turbo is a good way to tell if you have a bad turbo seal though. Is there any other reliable way to tell?

2) cracked header(s). I checked around in the dark with a flashlight and didn't see any. My car still has the stock heat shields tack-welded on. It's tough to see. The original owner told me that he never had them off to repair cracks. I believe him. He was very honest and upfront about the car when I bought it - I have not caught him in a lie yet after almost 2 years of ownership. Just exactly WHERE on the DS header is the crack-prone area? I know guys say between 3 & 5, but is that typically under the heat shield? Should I just bust those off? I really would like to stay stock appearing.

I will say that I went through the SM numbers at hot idle. Everything seems to be in line - BLM = 129, IAC might've been a little low at 25 (maybe not). Not overheating - idle temp tonight is around 171-173. During WOT, I verified FP to boost climb and that TPS was going up. It typically went up to like 4.56 to 4.62 at WOT.

Any help or thoughts? Especially about how to tell if I have a bad turbo seal. This has me worried due to the smoke out the tailpipes

Thanks in advance.

 

[bison]

Why wouldn't you pull the hoses and check the turbo before starting a thread like this? At 104mph you're not out of turbo either.

 

[87-WE2]

Why wouldn't you pull the hoses and check the turbo before starting a thread like this?

You're right - I should've pulled the hoses to look before posting. But I posted because I really don't know what to look for other than oil on the compressor side of the turbo outlet. Are there other signs of a bad turbo seal? Would a bad oil seal cause an unexpected drop in max boost pressure? I was trying to provide as much information as possible, as well as to see if any of my other ideas were more plausible.

At 104mph you're not out of turbo either.

I had heard from others on the board that the stock turbo is done @ 22PSI. That's where I was before all this other stuff started going on.

 

[bison]

The oil leakage will be obvious. Check the thrust on the shaft. Chances are there's a lot. It's probably leaking oil out the ex side and the compressor side. The seal on the compressor side is a carbon faced seal that rides against the thrust collar. It's a very positive seal. If the shaft is thrusting around alot it won't seal. The ex side is a piston ring.

 

[turbofrank]

Very simple 1.pull turbo intake hose from turbo if no oil from that side 2.pull elbow from turbo check for oil if both areas are clean turbo ok

 

[BEATAV8]

Either the turbo is failing or failed, or you have a crankcase ventillation problem.

Be aware that a crankcase pressure issue can also force oil to leak past the seals even in a perfectly good turbo. So if you see oil in the compressor outlet or turbine outlet, don't automatically assume that the turbo is bad. Check the in/out thrust play and see if the turbo is still tight. If it is, then take a careful look at the crankcase ventillation. The blowby needs to escape the engine crankcase in a free unrestricted manner. If it can't, it will find any way it can to get out of the engine including any weak gaskets, turbo seals, etc etc.. and it will carry engine oil with it.

Chances are, with the low boost and if you find a bunch of oil coming out of the turbo, then you should find something obviously wrong with the turbocharger. And it's probably making some noise too I would imagine.

 

[87-WE2]

OK - Finally back on this after a MONTH!! First I checked the oil to make sure I had no milkshake. Good there - oil was regular oil color.

Pulled the intake plumbing, inlet bell, plumbing to the intercooler. Found an EVER so slight thin film of oil. I mean very thin. Not what I would think would be causing the amount of smoke I see out the tailpipes. It's not like a fog machine, but you know it's coming out! Pulled the IC also just to make getting the exhaust elbow off a little easier.

Wiggled the shaft around and thought it was excessive; more than the .003" that's allowed, so I thought I'd probably find oil in the exhaust side. There's a video of the shaft play below.

Pulled the exhaust elbow (managed to break only ONE bolt off - I'll try to figure that one out later!!). I only found dry black soot - no oil on the exhaust side at all.

Now I don't know where the smoke is coming from out the tailpipes. It's out of BOTH sides for sure. Later on, I'll have to pull the PCV to check it. Otherwise, I guess the only thing it could be is the valve guides or rings?? Any input is appreciated.

Here's the vid of the shaft play. I have plans for a different turbo anyway; maybe now's the time for that and that new RJC DP I've had my eyes on. I'd really like to get this smoking thing figured out, though.

 

[bison]

The thrust is wasted. Looks like you have about .050" thrust in that vid and I'm on my phone. Maybe more. Chances are it's intermittently leaking into the exhaust. When their that bad you can't rebuild them either. The turbine is likely rubbing on the heat shield and the compressor wheel hitting the comp housing

 

[87-WE2]

I've heard no strange noises from the turbo, though. In my younger years, i had an 86 cougar with the turbo four and it made a helluva racket when the turbo took a dump.

I know you've forgotten more about turbos than I'll ever know, so don't take this the wrong way please. I'm not saying i don't believe you or that you're wrong, just not sure if the "no noise thing" makes any difference. I'd hate to stick a new $1000 turbo on there and still have the same smoke.

I really do appreciate the input, especially since it's coming from one of the foremost authorities on turbos.

If you still think it's bad, does it have any value at all? Even if just for the castings?

 

[bison]

If that turbo doesn't explode soon it will very shortly. You may have other problem(s) causing your smoking issue but that turbo is definitely shot. The value is the stock ex housing. I pay $75 to the door for cores. The only thing that i usually save is the ex and compressor housing and sometimes a back plate. The rest of the chra is usually wasted. Less than 10% of cores i get have a good ex or comp wheel.The comp housing isn't worth much. I have about 200 of them. Ex housings are worth something since they are the best housing option for a high percentage of people with aftermarket turbos. They need to be reconditioned and re-contoured to be used on different size and trim ex wheels.

 

[87-WE2]

Ok, thanks. Hope a new turbo cures the smoke. While i have stuff off, i'll check the pcv.

Care to make a turbo recommendation? Goal is 11.0 to 11.5. Stock intake, heads, cam converter. No plans on breaking the factory head gasket seal until i have to, but i might consider a new converter, but only when the stock trans starts to fail. I also plan on upgrading to 120's, rjc downpipe, powerlogger, wbo2. Ecm is at bailey right now being modded. Keep in mind im running e85. I was thinking 5831, 5857, or 5858. Not sure how those work with my combo though.

Again, thanks for your help and advice.

 

[bison]

Te44 Garrett .63 ex or 5858 with Garrett .63 if you keep the stock converter. If you get a e-stalled 12" you could get away with a precision .63 or run a 10" or get a bad ass ptc 9.5". Ive got a couple stock long block cars out there with ptc 9.5" that are brutal. Big difference between 11.5 and 11.0 performance and resilience of the engine though. You will need to have everything working properly and be running high boost to crack the 11.30 mark. You wont be running at that level very long on a stock trans. No sense in wasting the trans. Throw in a recalibration kit and oil cooler. One dose of detonation and the heads will need to come off. Your probably not getting there on 980 springs unless you shim them to at least 85lbs on the seat.

 

[87-WE2]

Te44 Garrett .63 ex or 5858 with Garrett .63 if you keep the stock converter. If you get a e-stalled 12" you could get away with a precision .63 or run a 10" or get a bad ass ptc 9.5". Ive got a couple stock long block cars out there with ptc 9.5" that are brutal. Big difference between 11.5 and 11.0 performance and resilience of the engine though. You will need to have everything working properly and be running high boost to crack the 11.30 mark. You wont be running at that level very long on a stock trans. No sense in wasting the trans. Throw in a recalibration kit and oil cooler. One dose of detonation and the heads will need to come off. Your probably not getting there on 980 springs unless you shim them to at least 85lbs on the seat.

Thanks for the recommendations. I didnt realize hitting 11.0 was going to be that rich! I can swing all the other stuff now, but not the trans and converter along with it.

After thinking about it a little, think I'll stick with a re-built stock turbo for now until i get all the funds to upgrade turbo, trans, converter, cam at the same time. Also after all my house issues are solved.

Whatcha got layin around for sale for a replacement for a stocker? A mild upgrade would be Ok, too! If you have anything that would be suitable, send me a PM about it and keep in mind I have this stock turbo here with a broken off bolt sticking out of it. Guess I'll get in touch with Jason on Monday about that dp.

 

[BEATAV8]

buddy of mine has a fresh stock rebuilt unit that came with his car, it has been run but very very little. he wants to upgrade to a 5858. Want me to send him your way?

 

[RUQWKNF]

Few more things to do.
Don't forget to clean your intercooler, intercooler to throttle body up pipe, MAF pipe (if you have one) or the MAF hose if stock, all intercooler hoses, throttle body and upper plenum of oil residue while you have it apart. It's also a good time to replace the spark plugs as well. PB Blaster on all hot side bolts for 24 hours to keep from breaking bolts during removal. 2 spring loaded downpipe bolts (if the car is stock) 4 bolts on the downpipe cast iron elbow (if stock) and or downpipe flange (if aftermarket) 3 header flange stud/nuts and two heat shield bracket nuts (under the heat shield) The heat shield bolts themselves typically will come off without much hassle, but a little soaking won't hurt them either, but it can damage the paint if the heat shield has been painted.

You can get K&N valve cover breathers and a inline PCV check valve to cure any crank case ventilation concerns. And if you are still running the rubber hose that connects the compressor cover inlet bell to the passenger side valve cover breather, don't do that. That factory setup does a very poor job of venting crankcase pressure. All it really does is fill your intercooler with oil and coat your intercooler hoses, throttle body, upper plenum and intake manifold with a film of oil. Take it off, us a rubber block off plug for the inlet bell's nipple (if you stay with a stock cast aluminum inlet bell and don't get a new billet aluminum inlet bell with your new turbo) and a K&N breather for the valve cover. Most all the vendors sell these parts. (G-Body Parts, Kirban, Full Throttle, Hartline, etc etc)
If this is the stock turbo that has never been removed, use caution when removing the factory oil return line as it is very easy to twist it and kink it, causing a massive oil leak when running. With regards to the turbo, I concur with what Bison said. The turbo is trashed. You are loosing boost because the turbine wheel is eating itself on the heat shield and the turbine housing. Also, the compressor cover is eating away on the compressor cover as well. The smoking is intermittent because the seals have not been completely destroyed. I would not drive that car again with that much thrust in the turbo. It is a grenade with the pin pulled at this point.

With that much thrust, I have no doubt you have material in your oil system. If it were mine, I would remove the factory oil cooler. There could be metal shavings stuck inside your stock oil cooler in the radiator. This oil cooler can not be sufficiently flushed. In my honest opinion, unless you are daily driving your car in 100+ degree heat year round, the factory oil cooler is really not necessary. Hopefully the material has not made it's way to your cam and bearings. Also, an oil change is mandatory with the turbo swap.

To remove the factory oil cooler lines and adapter you simply disconnect the lines from the radiator and the oil pump adapter, remove the lines, plug those holes in the radiator, then remove the oil cooler adapter from the oil pump by removing the adapter fitting that screws the oil cooler adapter to the oil pump housing. Take off the adapter making sure the o-ring is not sticking to the oil pump before installing your new oil filter. Your oil filter will now screw directly to the oil pump without any issues. (PF52 or equivalent for more oil filtration) This is all assuming your car is stock and does not have an aftermarket oil filtration kit.
You can see the adapter fitting, o-ring, oil cooler adapter plate and the lines on the lower left of this image.

And whatever you do, make sure you are running ZDDPlus oil additive with the oil change, whenever you install your new turbo. These last items will greatly reduce wear on not only your new turbo, but also your crank bearings, the camshaft, lifters and the cam bearings.
Hope some of this helps.

Patrick

 

[87-WE2]

Wow. Thanks for all the advice. Aloy of the stuf you listed has been done already. I'll prbably take your advice on bypassing the oil cooler as its not a dd. occasional weekend warrior.

 

[bison]

Wow. Thanks for all the advice. Aloy of the stuf you listed has been done already. I'll prbably take your advice on bypassing the oil cooler as its not a dd. occasional weekend warrior.

It's also advisable to put something on that pre-filters all the oil going to the turbo. Precision has a nice setup

 

[87-WE2]

All the intercooler hoses and intake piping are already cleaned. Breathers installed on both valve covers and inlet bell tube from VC's already blocked off. When I pulled the IC, it had no oil in it but I had completed spring cleaning back in May of last year - I'll still clean it again as you recommended. PTE Turbo Saver ordered from Hartline. ZDDPlus is in the oil, but I will change to be sure and will from here on out be running without the factory oil cooler.

Thanks to Bison for the new turbo and all the advice. Thanks Patrick for your input. All I need now is my ECM back from Bob and the turbo-saver to get her back on the road. I might go with an RJC 3" DP now while it's apart, but not sure. I've got to work out how to connect it to the factory catalytic converter that is gutted. State of Texas won't let me pass inspection without the cat being on there, regardless of whether it has anything in it or not (it currently does not). Thanks again guys.

 

[87-WE2]

Turbo arrived today - Thanks Bison!
Modded ECM arrived today - Thanks TurboBob!
TurboSaver arrived last week - Thanks Hartline Perf!
I'll get to the downpipe later; enough Christmas presents for ME! Just need to concentrate on the wife & kids now. (Too bad they don't like downpipes, Powerloggers, and new injectors & chips.)
Will post back up once I have it back together. I hope this cures the car's ills for a while - I'm anxious to get it back on the road.

 

[usetaboost]

I would also suggest cleaning out the pcv and putting a small catch can inline. Helped a lot on my car. No longer embarrassing start ups, smoke barely puffs after snapping the throttle closed now.