High BLM #'s after New Injectors/PTE Chip/Adj Fuel Reg

[turbot2496]

I got some bad injectors.. now who's paying me for my time


Ahhhh. I guess I misunderstood your post Razor. From your post, I thought you meant all the injectors were bad which seemed pretty unusual and that the car should have been really running like crap. Sorry for the misunderstanding, thought there might be something there I didn't know about.

 

[V6Turbo]

Originally posted by Razor
Virgil, with the car off, if you unplug the hose going to your cruise, you will hear the hiss if the vacuum ball is holding vacuum.

Listen, there is only one way to test vacuum lines and accessories..using a Mity Vac vacuum pump with a guage. If the stuff your testing doesnt hold the needle.. then you have your issue.

Julio

Bought the Mity Vac Vacuum Ball is able to hold pressure.

However, I tried the line going to the Charcoal Canister but could not even get to vacuum after several pumps. I unplugged the line and plugged the line but no affect on BLM at idle.

Is there another procedure for the Charcoal Canister to verify if it is in good condition?

Thanks,

 

[Razor]

turbot2496, its alrite.. stuff happens when you work on cars. just always expect the unexpected. Which one was bad..dunno man..

Virgil, that solenoid on top of the cannister should hold vacuum if its applied to its nipple, if it doesnt its bad. If that solenoid is bad, the check valve going to it was probably bad as well. Evertime you find something bad your one step closer. Sorry the car is close to 20 years old. Stuff happens.

I see you havent done searching, if you had, this ive already gone through. Search high BLM's.. now plug all the lines on top of the throttle body. Easy way to do this, remove the two screws on top of the vacuum block, lift it a little, and put something there to seal it. I use gasket material(plain) they sell it in a roll, with some dressing(hylomar, vaseline), push the two screws through it, and tighten them down. This way there is no vacuum going to any accessory. Doing so should drop your BL's down under 120 typically, if theyre still at 150..your issue is elsewhere.

Understand what bl 150 means. The O2 sensor reads that the mixture is lean, and is commanding the ecm to add fuel. Lean happens from too much air. Where is the too much air.. this is where your at. You have to isolate the motor.. air leak anywhere can do this. Bad MAF, bad O2, cracked header, throttle body, FPR, TB gasket, plenum gasket, intake gasket, cam, vacuum block gasket, bad injector, IC, Turbo, chip, ecm, ignition module, etc etc etc... If I sound repetitive.. sorry. see if even didnt mention vacuum lines.

Everytime you find a vacuum breach.. reset the computer and try again. Do the top engine cleaner to check for exhuast leaks, place the MAF rite before the throttle body eliminating the turbo and IC... what can I say..you dont fix this, you'll hurt your motor driving it this way. Why becuase the extra fuel it's dropping in will wash down the cylinders and mess the oil up. Bad oil, can hurt the bearings, wash down can hurt the rings/walls. Let alone your fuel tables now are skewed up.. the idle BL's set up the basis for your computers tuning.. cant tell you how many blown head gaskets i've seen with cars that have a high bl problem.

Do some searching, or get the car to someone that can diagnose this kind of issue. Its usually something simple..problem is its hard to find. I hate this kind of stuff.. much easier to do headgaskets than constantly prod around a motor hoping to find the issue.

HTH

Julio

 

[turbot2496]

Excellent info Razor. I figured my car was ok as long as the BLM's weren't pegged at 150. I figured as long as it wasn't maxed out. With no KR and good looking plugs and decent mileage, I've been kinda lax about it, but after reading this thread, I guess I'd better get off my butt and really check everything out and try and get those BLM's down as close to 128 as I can.

 

[Eric Stage I]

turbot2496,

You're right, as long as the blm's aren't pegged at 150, you're ok (although its nice to bring it down a little to give some breathing room).

Assuming that your O2 sensor is reading properly, then blm's in the 140's are no richer or leaner than blm's in the 120's. As long as its not pegged at 105 or 150, then the mixture is exactly 14.8:1 (+/- .2 or so). The only way high blm's can cause an actual rich mixture in closed loop is if the O2 sensor is incorrect (maybe there is a huge crack in a header).

A vacuum leak is letting in unmetered air, which makes it go lean, so the ecm adds fuel to get back to 14.8, so we're ok. But, if the we hit the limit of 150, then the ecm couldn't add enough fuel, and the mixture will be lean.

As long as the O2 is correct, a blm of 106 or 149 is exactly the same fuel mixture (you can confirm this with a wideband O2). Its when they peg their limit where things get wacky.

The idle blm's won't affect WOT fuel, but cell 15 can (the last cell).

Regards,
Eric

 

[V6Turbo]

Originally posted by turbot2496
Excellent info Razor. as I can.

Ditto!!!!

 

[turbot2496]

Thanks Eric. I get smarter everyday reading this board.

 

[Razor]

Yes as long as the bl's are not hovering near their limits, then its ok. See if you can get your BL's down to 128, then you lean the fuel pressure to lean the cars WOT, then the bl's will be higher. But this is assumming the changes being made have that kind of effect.

If your high bl's are due to an air leak, then its one issue. If theyre due to lower than normal FP..then its another. riding with the car on 149 or 106 is not the way to do it. Especially if fuel pressure is at a reasonable level. if you need 50 lbs static to bring down your bl's.. you need work.

Chasing bl's will make you crazy.. but important to see the car respond to fuel pressure changes taking effects on the way they read. Mine I typically set around 124-132. actually +- 10 is great too. Just not good when your 147..then they go to 150..then 149..etc..

Cheers guys..

Julio

 

[8UWITH6]

Well, Ill chime in here real quick......Julio, Eric....we have addressed my T-type in the alky forum. Heres what has happened since. On cold start up, the BLMs and INT are "normal". I usually let the car run for 10 minutes or so before leaving in the morning for work. I usually get in the car when the coolant is 120-140 degrees and jump on the highway. When I check the BLM and INT, the INT is up in the 140s + or - 10, but the BLM is fine (cruising at 70 on the highway). But get this, once it warms up to 162 degrees, its the opposite. BLM is 140s and INT is normal. Since I have put the street chip back in and backed the boost down to 15psi, the car has been running a bit better, and yeah yeah, the gas mileage has gone up some.

Wellllll..........I just read this post, and went outside and pulled the line going to the cruise (before the Y split) and there was no sound. Now......I really got to thinking here......it *SEEMS* that the car has not run "well" since I did my vacuum brake conversion. Hrmm.....I wonder.......but the brakes feel great?! Is there a check valve that I can put inline with the booster? If not I can still test it right? While the car is running, in park at operating temp, I can technically watch the BLMs, then pull that booster line and plug it completely off......right? If the BLMs go back to normal I have found 1 potential problem correct? If so, Im doing that tomorrow on my day off.

I have a vac pump and I too noticed that when I pulled the vac line off going to the charcoal canister and tried to pump up the vacuum on the gauge, it did not work. I even tried pressure, and it did not work either. However, it could be operator error. Im going to try all these tests tomorrow if its not too freakin cold out. Oh yeah.....when I pulled the line off going to the charcoal cannister, the car would barely stay running????? Normal?

Just thought Id share my similar problems, and try and figure this out together. Ill post updates on my alky tuning post in the alky section of the board too.....

THANKS FOR THE INFO GUYS!

 

[Razor]

Hey Neil,
If you look under your FPR there is a metal line, from it goes to a one way check valve. From it there is a "T" fitting. One part of the T goes to the EGR, the other to your vacuum accessories. Right behind the brake booster along the firewall there is a vacuum hose that runs to the cruise control and vacuum ball. if you unhook the rubber from wher it branches, this is the place to test it. It will take quite a few pumps for the needle to start going up if everything is ok. Since you have to evac the air out of the ball. Anyways that hose rots on almost all the cars I've ever looked at.

There is another line that goes through another check valve to your cannister. Its the nipple behind the alternator. If you pull that hose, it should hold vacuum as well. If it doesnt, then its a bad check valve/hose/cannister valve. This being done car off.

The EGR solenoid is bit tricky to test. See you have to remove the cover on the back, remove the little filter, apply vacuum to the larger nipple on the front, and while holding your finger to plug the air filter nipple hole, it should hold vacuum. At least some.. a couple inches is all thats needed without the needle on the guage falling.

The check valves go bad due to age and what not.. once they go bad, they allow boost to go past them.. once this happens, it kills the diaphrams in those units.. not always.. but happens.

Lastly on your brake booster there is a check valve that lets it hold pressure. Its that black plastic thing on the end of the hose rite where it plugs into the booster. No that has no bearing on your blm problem unless the booster doesnt hold vacuum.. If you pull that off the booster you should hear a PSSSHHHH.

Good luck.

Julio

 

[8UWITH6]

Okay, I tested the EGR soleniod. However, I didnt pull the filter out. I put the vac pump on the large inlet to the soleniod and plugged the little nipple with my finger. It made the farting sound. Im going back out into the garage right now to pull the little filter out and plug that too. BRB

 

[8UWITH6]

Pulled the filter out, plugged both nipples and applied vac to the soleniod.........pshhhhhttttttt, vac drops, and it sounds like somethings rattling inside. Id say its bad huh? So.....how much are these things? And something else...on my GN I dont use the EGR, its plugged by the powerplate. Can I test the soleniod on it, and if its good use that one.......and delete the one on the GN? Thanks........oh and this could cause high BLMs right?

 

[Razor]

Arent you lucky to have two cars to swap stuff back and forth.

I typically get those solenoids at the junk yard. Theyre pricey at auto parts stores.

I have my EGR blocked off on my power plate too, it doesnt cuase high BLM's.

HTH

 

[8UWITH6]

Yep, actually 3, my dad has a Limited. So yes, its nice. So......follow me here......on the drivers side valve cover.....you have the metal line that comes back towards the firewall that goes to the EGR soleniod. Then it comes out of the soleniod and goes to the EGR. On that first line going into the soleniod, you have your checkvalve, and your T-fitting that goes to other Vac accessories. I take it that all Id have to do is remove the soleniod, and all the vac lines to it, then extend the vac line from the metal line to the check valve, past where the EGR soleniod used to be, to the 3-way connector on the firewall, and everything should be okay right? Hope you followed that.

BTW, would this soleniod being bad cause white plugs? THANKS!

 

[Joe Lubrant]

Originally posted by Eric Stage I
turbot2496,

You're right, as long as the blm's aren't pegged at 150, you're ok (although its nice to bring it down a little to give some breathing room).

Assuming that your O2 sensor is reading properly, then blm's in the 140's are no richer or leaner than blm's in the 120's. As long as its not pegged at 105 or 150, then the mixture is exactly 14.8:1 (+/- .2 or so). The only way high blm's can cause an actual rich mixture in closed loop is if the O2 sensor is incorrect (maybe there is a huge crack in a header).

A vacuum leak is letting in unmetered air, which makes it go lean, so the ecm adds fuel to get back to 14.8, so we're ok. But, if the we hit the limit of 150, then the ecm couldn't add enough fuel, and the mixture will be lean.

As long as the O2 is correct, a blm of 106 or 149 is exactly the same fuel mixture (you can confirm this with a wideband O2). Its when they peg their limit where things get wacky.

The idle blm's won't affect WOT fuel, but cell 15 can (the last cell).

Regards,
Eric

I agree with Eric's statement above. I also have the following to add:

The Injectors were sent back to PTE and were flowed at Low pulse idle rpm and at 90% DC & Static every Injectors flowed within 2% of each other at any given test.

Therefore the Injectors are not the Problem!!

As far as the Chip program is concerned most if not all programs I have seen, including mine use an Injector Constant of approx. .16 to .17 or should I just say Hex 29 or 2A.
There are 1,000's of these programs out there without any issues.
So I believe the program is not the problem.

As far as BLI's & BLM's here's my take......at Idle if BLM is at 150 and the BLI is at 128 +/- 5 , I usually don't get as excited as I have seen in some of previous postings. It would not indicate Bad Injectors. More than likely a mechanical issue of minor nature.

I think I would first re-adjust TPS to .40-.42, verify proper setting of IAC & base Idle to match, also Fuel Pressure, and see what effect this has on blm's?

In any event the car should still run fine, as I am sure the BLM's & BLI's are well within range. Also the blm at cell 15 will not effect WOT fueling as this has been taken care of in the program.

The 128 (supposedly perfect) computer range unless changed in program is 105 to 150.....equals +/- approx. 17% for each BLM & BLI.

There are some programmers out there that actually open up the BLM & BLI maximums to 90 min. to 160 max. approx +/- 25% to cover possible errors in fueling calc's.



Joe

 

[Razor]

Heres an injector question,

Once an injector has been flowed, what liquid is used to keep the injector from locking up during storage. Does PTE use a special liquid to keep them locking up?

I have also learned, it is possible for one injector to hang closed/shut and tapping on them may cure the condition.

No, the injectors I had issue with werent from PTE.

Thoughts?

If my car was at 150 for bl's at idle..dunno bout you guys.. i'd be searching high and wide for the solution.

8UWITHA6, yes your correct, except now you've disabled your EGR operation and require a change in your chip to offset that. becuase it will command the EGR to operate, and expect it to do so and change fueling thinking its operating.

 

[Joe Lubrant]

Originally posted by Razor
Heres an injector question,

Once an injector has been flowed, what liquid is used to keep the injector from locking up during storage. Does PTE use a special liquid to keep them locking up?

I have also learned, it is possible for one injector to hang closed/shut and tapping on them may cure the condition.

No, the injectors I had issue with werent from PTE.

Thoughts?

If my car was at 150 for bl's at idle..dunno bout you guys.. i'd be searching high and wide for the solution.

8UWITHA6, yes your correct, except now you've disabled your EGR operation and require a change in your chip to offset that. becuase it will command the EGR to operate, and expect it to do so and change fueling thinking its operating.

I was told we use a special solvent with the closest specific gravity as gasoline... the name I can't recall at this time.
After flowing nothing else is used for storage, because most injectors we flow are gone within a few weeks. We sometimes are flowing the injectors the same day or week of order entry/shipping.
Injectors normally have a problem in storage if the have been run on a car or flowed with gas (dangerous) and allowed to varnish up.

 

[snail power]

Not to beat a dead horse but I have had the same freain 44 MAL code since I purchased my car and is pegged at 150 on the BLM and INT at idle in PARK. I found quite a few vaccuum leaks in which I replaced and cured my stumbling idle (thank god) but the BL is still at 150 pegged along with INT showing from the scanmaster. Now my car does not utilize the EGR but the nipple is not covered on it. Could that be an issue causing the BLM's to hit 150? Please be nice on answers since I am slowly but surely getting to know this car more and more in depth everytime I read here and stick my hands on the engine . I am doing this all on my own and trying to restore my bad boy as much as possible. Cars set up is as follows.

PTE TE-60 turbo .82 housing
TH 3" downpipe to straight pipe
atr ss 2.5 duals
Champion ported heads and intake
62mm TB, rjc power plate
atr 313b cam, heavy duty valve springs
trw forged pistons 30 over shotpeened rods
stock intercooler (SUCKS I KNOW) soon to be changed
fully built trans with art carr 3000 stall lock up converter
adj fpr set to 41 psi (line on)
42.5 lb injectors
yours truly posed above Joe Lubrant stret chip 92 octane
heavy duty rad with ramchargers dual fans

Again not sure if that open nipple on the EGR could effect the BLM's but would love to know.

Thanks for the help GUYS!

 

[Razor]

Do a search under High Blm and you'll see steps and procedures for curing your condition.

150 BLM screams leak. Where.. go search.. and when you've done all listed.. hit me with the questions.

Julio

 

[snail power]

Well thanks for the advice, been there done that, but sometimes it hurts reading through XXXX amount of posts as opposed to just getting an answer like the say.....if the nipple off your egr is exposed even though not in use it can affect BLM's I know the search helps which it has..Just trying to avoid scrambling through posts I have read and reread.


Nick